OO for iPad and Dropbox

[wolfneuralnet]

I am patiently waiting for OO iPad, since there is nothing comparable on the market (which is amazing to me...) One of the things that I wish I could do easily on the iPad is create good hierarchical outlines that would be synced back to the desktop that I could work with in the desktop version.

Which brings me to my request. As of now, there is no way to have documents saved back to a useful place that is then available on the desktop from the iPad. Fortunately, Dropbox has an API that makes this easy -- a few developers for iPad apps have included this in their releases, and it works very well.

I realize Omni doesn't generally use third-party storage solutions, preferring its own servers, etc. but in the iPads case, since Apple has dropped the ball on file storage, I think it is warranted.

Please consider Dropbox integration for OO, as there is no other way I can think of to make working on my outlines a seamless process on the iPad. Omnifocus of course has its own syncing solution, but task managers are a different issue I think since it doesn't have a "document" that it is working with.

[sgecko]

i'm sure they can do the same as they did with OmniGraffle for the iPad. very simple way to transfer files back and forth through iTunes Apps File Sharing. don't worry, this will be easy.

[rgammon]

+1 for DropBox integration. iTunes file sharing is useless for me-- I iTunes-sync the iPad with a media server, but use DropBox for all my work files (the iPad is uniting those 2 lives of personal media and work file portability). Also, iTunes file sharing is a clunky extra step.

I want to be on the bus, tap a .graffle in Readdle or Dropbox and open to edit in in OmniGraffle and then save (this works for Readdle->DocsToGo office files). Then I want to get off the bus, go into my office, and have that edited .graffle automagically in my dropBox on my desktop.

OmniGraffle iPad is an incredibly useful app. But without better file i/o, it throws me back to version control by email attachment. It just feels wrong.

[random1destiny]

+1000
OmniGroup needs to understand some OO users are updating some of their main OO files all day, and if they had an iphone version they'd be making similar updates anytime they step away from their computer. To expect them to do a full iPhone-iTunes sync every time they step away from the computer is going to make for a bad experience. And if you don't sync and want to make a change on your iPhone you won't want to because it will cause version conflicts.

Please please enable Dropbox syncing! Without that, I don't see any reason to buy the app over continuing to use the LogMeIn app to use the full OO app on my computer. I never have to worry about syncing issues that way.

[dude]

iDisk would be a logical solution as well.

[HappyCatMachine]

iDisk would be a logical solution as well.

iDisk is a costly solution. Dropbox is free and elegant. There is no comparison.

[psidnell]

iDisk is a costly solution. Dropbox is free and elegant. There is no comparison.

I'm surprised at how little iDisk integration there is in apps, probably a consequence of the cost, Dropbox is by far the most widely supported.

Consequently if you want to export a file from one app to another and back again then dropbox is pretty much the only game in town.

I have used GoodReader on the iPhone and iPad to move data between the two universes at a pinch but it turns what should be a 10 second task into a 5 minute one.

However, one could criticise DropBox for not supporting WebDav - if they did this then app developers could support iDisk and DropBox for no additional development cost.

[dude]

iDisk is a costly solution. Dropbox is free and elegant. There is no comparison.

But there are a large number of Mac users who use iDisk. You can't just ignore it.

[psidnell]

But there are a large number of Mac users who use iDisk. You can't just ignore it.

Don't worry, MobileMe is going to "get a lot better" this year.

http://www.macrumors.com/2010/12/07/steve-jobs-mobileme-to-get-a-lot-better-next-year/

Read into that what you will.

[shhQuiet]

iDisk is a costly solution. Dropbox is free and elegant. There is no comparison.

Here's some comparison:
I get 20GB from iDisk (which I already pay for), and I get only 2GB from DropBox (which I don't pay for). Since for me iDisk is a given (due to family MobileMe subscription), why shouldn't I be able to use it?

I use OmniFocus sync via iDisk (Mac/iPhone/iPad) and it works great.

On another topic:
Am I the only one checking the app store every few minutes to see if OO is there? :D

[whpalmer4]

On another topic:
Am I the only one checking the app store every few minutes to see if OO is there? :D
You could save yourself the trouble, if you want. As I recall, the app doesn't just automatically go "live" in the store when approved — Omni has to flip the switch. You can sign up to get a notification when they do. See Ken's blog post at http://www.omnigroup.com/blog/entry/ipad_or_bust_omnioutliner_for_ipad/ for details.

[shhQuiet]

You could save yourself the trouble, if you want. As I recall, the app doesn't just automatically go "live" in the store when approved — Omni has to flip the switch. You can sign up to get a notification when they do. See Ken's blog post at http://www.omnigroup.com/blog/entry/ipad_or_bust_omnioutliner_for_ipad/ for details.

<sigh> I know... I've already signed up for it... DAMN THIS OCD!!!

[psidnell]

Am I the only one checking the app store every few minutes to see if OO is there? :D

No :-)

I also look here (http://reviewtimes.shinydevelopment.com/) just to see how impatient I'm being.

[whpalmer4]

Apple could roll out a new file sharing service that handled the syncing to the iOS local copy automatically for all apps built with the latest bits, and then any app that needed to read/write documents could automatically stay up to date. Right now, you can run the Dropbox app on your iPad, and mark certain files in your Dropbox as favorites, to be kept in the iPad's filesystem (and updated when they are noticed to have changed), and that works reasonably well except that those files may not be accessible to the apps in which you want to use them. Even if you can get the file over to the app via the Open in... mechanism, the app may not be able to send it back to the Dropbox app to have it automatically propagated elsewhere on Dropbox. Apple could provide us with filesystem support that didn't have those restrictions, but no one else can.

[psidnell]

Sounds like you have some inside knowledge, have you been sneaking through the sewers into to Apples hollowed out volcano?

[whpalmer4]

No inside knowledge — just straightforward connecting the dots. What could you do to make Dropbox work better on IOS devices? What I said :) Only Apple is in a position to provide the software that makes it all work, though.

[Tam]

Add me to the list of those obsessively checking the app store too. I use OO all the time on my Mac and can't wait to have it on my iPad too (and hopefully one day my iPhone).

I hope Omni will add Dropbox support too. Lots of other productivity apps have it (e.g. Quickoffice and GoodReader). Given the premium price of Omni's apps, they really ought to have such features. MobileMe is okay, and I do have an account, but I just find Dropbox does a better job and I'd rather keep all my syncing in one place.

I don't really get why Omni is wasting time and money on their own sync server, given there are plenty of 3rd party solutions out there, surely their limited resources are better deployed elsewhere.

[whpalmer4]

I don't really get why Omni is wasting time and money on their own sync server, given there are plenty of 3rd party solutions out there, surely their limited resources are better deployed elsewhere.
They aren't wasting time and money, they are providing a valuable service, for free. No other provider is able to repair problems with OmniFocus or OmniPlan sync databases, for example. Omni is providing a sync service that should just work, for anyone who needs it, and you don't have to worry about the security of your data to the degree you might with someone else (if you don't trust their IT staff, you probably shouldn't use their software!). They are going to be more motivated to keep things running smoothly than any other 3rd party. If you call up the Omni support staff with a sync problem when using their server, they can look directly at your database to troubleshoot and repair. The hardware investment is a Mac Mini and some disk, last I heard, so it's not like they are blowing the year's hardware budget. They can afford to give it away because it is so inexpensive to provide. If the support ninjas spend less time on sync problems, they are more available for other issues, so everybody wins.

[Tam]

So are you saying something different is going on when OmniFocus syncs to Omni's server as opposed to when it syncs with something in the cloud? Or is it just quicker/easier to troubleshoot as they have the data right there?

I'm not so much concerned with the security of data. I probably actually trust Omni more than someone like Dropbox given the excellent customer service I've had from them whenever I've had a problem over the years.

If the investment is that low, point taken. Then again, I'd query how robust the solution is if it's just a mac mini sitting in their office. (Though of course bigger cloud companies have their share of outages too.)

I can certainly see the merits of it for OmniFocus. I'm less convinced for something like OmniOutliner.

[whpalmer4]

I've been using it almost exclusively for as long as it has been available, and I'm a pretty intensive user. The only outage I've encountered was a planned one a month or two ago, and I got plenty of warning. Can't say the same about MobileMe, with a much larger budget! I've also seen plenty of apologetic tweets from Dropbox saying that yes, their service is down and their provider is working on it. If the OSS goes out, you can just point your software at a different WebDAV server and continue to work in the same manner (albeit without access to files you had only on the OSS), whereas when Dropbox is down, you've got to switch to an entirely different way of working if you've been relying on Dropbox as your file conduit.

Nothing different happens during the sync to the OSS vs. the sync I would do to Apache running on my iMac, but the support ninjas have tools where they can quickly see the sync activity, etc. and they can repair the database if it comes to that.

Marginal cost to supporting OmniOutliner, OmniGraffle, OmniGraphSketcher, OmniPlan is probably vanishingly small; it's all just standard WebDAV traffic, and they built the server infrastructure for OmniFocus.

[Brian]

So are you saying something different is going on when OmniFocus syncs to Omni's server as opposed to when it syncs with something in the cloud? Or is it just quicker/easier to troubleshoot as they have the data right there?

Mostly the latter - it's a webDAV server we can access on the back end when customers give us permission to help them solve a problem.

I'd query how robust the solution is if it's just a mac mini sitting in their office.

The server you're actively interacting with is a Mac mini, but there's more involved than just that machine. The data is backed up, for example, in case something happens and we need to fall back. The same folks that are keeping our online store secure and protecting the data in our source control system are keeping an eye on the Sync Server.

None of the above rule out the possibility of something going wrong, of course, but hopefully it's at least a little more reassuring. :-)

(It's still been a remarkably easy/inexpensive thing to provide to customers; there was a lot of overlap with the work we were already doing to run a software company of this size and run our online store.)

[Tam]

Thanks for the all the info whpalmer4 and Brian.

[RedHotFuzz]

Don't worry, MobileMe is going to "get a lot better" this year.

Unfortunately, we've been hearing this for years. :(

[jgrafix]

Point is that most apps support both MobileMe and DropBox. MM = $99 per year for 20GB. DB = $99 per year for 50GB.

[HappyCatMachine]

Point is that most apps support both MobileMe and DropBox. MM = $99 per year for 20GB. DB = $99 per year for 50GB.

Dropbox = Free option, MM = $99 per year.

I think that is what most people see :D

[Brian]

Dropbox = Free option, MM = $99 per year.

Which is why we have the Omni Sync Server. (Free and staying that way.) :D

[wolfneuralnet]

From the OP: Thanks to all for an interesting discussion. I am of course disappointed that DB didn't make it into this version, and am struggling with a new workflow that will allow me to use my shiny new OO app on the iPad.

Can someone explain to me how to use the Sync Server on the desktop/laptop, or is there a doc on this somewhere? How do I get it to sync a folder or something so I can use this offline as well (run rsync between the mounted WebDAV and a DB folder?). Why does this have to be so complicated?

iDisk has never, ever worked properly when a local copy is used, and its pretty bad for WebDAV as well. I would just like to understand how the devs think we should be using this app with files that are on other computers, which I think most people are going to need access to and some reasonable strategy of dealing with. I understand when Apple does this (they have their own motives about removing file systems) but I don't really understand when other devs follow suit like this (other than this just not making the features list for v.1.0, but thats not what I am hearing.)