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hoardingbottles
2006-11-12, 06:05 PM
I tried for several minutes to remove a column and I can't. The removal button is disabled. I can remove the other columns, just not this particular one.

OmniOutliner could be very useful, but fails. It is not intuitive and makes no sense. There is no reason this column should be there permanently. The column moves horizontally and everything, I just can't remove of it.

JKT
2006-11-12, 11:42 PM
If you mean the very first column in a document - it is for showing and hiding inline notes and is not a normal column as you have discovered. If you view notes in a pane, it indicates when a note has been added to a row.

FWIW, it isn't displayed in any print out. It is only visible in the document window.

hoardingbottles
2006-11-13, 05:29 AM
Yes, the first thin column can't be removed, and that's fine - it makes sense. But neither can the another column. The thing that I don't like is that if you move this column, which I guess is the first column next to the thin one when you start a new document, it dynamically changes the arrangement of it in the "Utility Drawer" to reflect the order of the columns (Column 2, etc.).

If this column (the second one when you start a new document) cannot be removed, it shouldn't be able to be moved/reordered at all, in my opinion.

cweath
2006-11-13, 06:01 AM
I don't understand why you would want to remove the "first" column? Isn't the first column the "outline" and isn't that the whole point of OO? To me, all the additional columns are just support for the outline. Without the outline it's just a spreadsheet (sorta).

But I don't know your use, so I could be wrong

hoardingbottles
2006-11-13, 06:35 AM
I think I get it now. I've used OO before for several things, but this time I reordered the columns and it messed things up.

There should be something that automatically visually distinguishes the "Outline" column from the others. In the the "Utility Drawer" for example, it should say "(Outline Column)" for this column that can't be removed and "(Column #)" for the others. Or something.

The way it is now, I think that it's just confusing.

DerekM
2006-11-14, 12:28 PM
I'm sorry this confused you. That column is the main column that controls the outline structure. If you deleted that, you would no longer have the handles (bullets, checkboxes, triangles). That's how you can visually see which column it is if you've moved them around. There's currently not a way through the UI to change which column has the handles so you're not allowed delete it.

--
Derek M.
Support Engineer
The Omni Group

Usable Thought
2008-11-13, 05:13 AM
There's currently not a way through the UI to change which column has the handles so you're not allowed delete it.

Sorry, but this is a bug. The reason being, the interface gives no clue as to this limitation, thus provoking occasional users (e.g. hoardingbottles, and just now myself) into trying to do the impossible. Users are not wrong here; the software is wrong. End of story.

At least the $#*&# help should mention this ... which it doesn't. Maybe the help could be revised, eh?

whpalmer4
2008-11-14, 12:17 PM
Do you have a suggestion for a UI change that would make this clearer, if labeling the column "topic" in an outliner isn't enough of a clue? Out of curiosity, had you read the documentation before encountering this problem? I like using programs without consulting the documentation as much as the next guy, but I understand that sometimes the results are better otherwise. Making a user interface that effectively incorporates all of the documentation (or otherwise makes it unnecessary) can be pretty limiting in a complex program.

Judging from the fact that the previous posting on this thread is almost exactly 2 years old, one might get the impression that this isn't exactly a common stumbling block :-)

Usable Thought
2008-11-14, 12:30 PM
Hmm, you seem bent on telling me I did not experience a problem worth mentioning. I disagree. I hope that is okay with you.

Personally, I like OmniOutliner & use it often - but that does not prevent me from (a) getting frustrated at a defect in the design, and (b) pointing it out.

Since it is unlikely a defect this minor can or will be remedied, adding a line or two to the documentation might be a simple way to ease those users who do in fact encounter this glitch, and turn to the help file to see if it's something they're doing wrong.

DerekM
2008-11-14, 02:17 PM
I'm sorry this caused you confusion. The outline column can not be deleted, nor does it make any sense to be able to delete it because that is your "outline". Without it all you have is rows of text hardly better or maybe even worse than a plain text document.

OmniOutliner 3's help file is basically as old as the app and we've been trying to make improvements in all our apps since then along with other online resources. There are a number of improvements to OO's documentation we'd like to make for OO4 not just in the text but presentation as well.

The printed manual, which is available from our website in PDF, has an nice introduction to the app and interface which labels the topic column as the outline. Any additional columns you add are to build on that outline, each column isn't its own outline.

Out of curiosity, what were you expecting to happen if you could delete the outline column? Did you move a different column to the left of it which you intended to use as the outline column instead? Or do you feel that every single column should be delete-able so you can have a completely blank document window. Or maybe you weren't even taking advantage of any of the outlining capabilities so the outline column served no real purpose in that document?

whpalmer4
2008-11-14, 09:06 PM
Hmm, you seem bent on telling me I did not experience a problem worth mentioning. I disagree. I hope that is okay with you.

No, I wasn't trying to tell you anything of the sort. You certainly did experience a problem, and you mentioned it. What would be the point of trying to convince you otherwise?

Personally, I like OmniOutliner & use it often - but that does not prevent me from (a) getting frustrated at a defect in the design, and (b) pointing it out.

Since it is unlikely a defect this minor can or will be remedied, adding a line or two to the documentation might be a simple way to ease those users who do in fact encounter this glitch, and turn to the help file to see if it's something they're doing wrong.

Well, it's a matter of opinion as to whether or not it is a defect in the design. No data was lost, the program didn't end unexpectedly, and it didn't behave in a fashion other than that intended by its creators. It sounds like what you want it to be is a spreadsheet instead of an outliner which happens to include some features also found in spreadsheets. I agree that there would be no harm in including a sentence in the documentation that clarifies that you cannot delete the outline column.

Did you want to delete the outline column because you had put what might normally go there in a different column and no longer wanted the outline column? I don't know what your final product was intended to be, but if you eliminate the "Topic" heading and adjust the width of the outline column to its narrowest, you essentially hide the outline column from view. However, if you've already populated the outline column in multiple rows, this won't work so well, and removing the text would be less convenient unless you use something like this Applescript:

tell application "OmniOutliner Professional" -- use "OmniOutliner" if you have that
tell front document
try
set rowCount to count of rows
repeat with i from 1 to rowCount
set text of cell 2 of row i to ""
end repeat
on error errormessage number errornumber
display dialog errormessage buttons {"OK"} default button 1
end try
end tell
end tell

Usable Thought
2008-11-15, 02:07 AM
I'm sorry this caused you confusion. The outline column can not be deleted, nor does it make any sense to be able to delete it because that is your "outline."

This may be true from a coding perspective, but it is false from a GUI perspective. Once the functionality for deleting or inserting columns was added to the app, it created the potential for a user wanting to delete the 1st column - and there is nothing in the GUI to indicate visually that this can't be done. Nor does your "logic" that "this is the outline" hold up - such logic needs visual support from the GUI and doesn't have it.

Out of curiosity, what were you expecting to happen if you could delete the outline column?

Here's what I was doing. I sometimes use OmniOutliner as a sort of "super text editor" - which by the way is part of your company's sales pitch for it - the main product page for OO even brags that you can use it to "write screenplays," ha ha ha. Well, anyway, I do sometimes find it useful for a few text editing tasks, just as I have used other folding-outline editors previously (e.g. Emacs). If you have a long text document, you can work visually on just a section at a time - very handy. And being able to print only selected sections is also handy.

So what I did in this case was (a) import an RFT text I was working on, thus forming the first column, and then (b) write comments in a column to the right about this original text. When I was done, I wanted to keep only my comments - i.e. keep only the second column & dispose of the first. This proved (apparently) to be impossible to do in any single operation. I could not find a way to select and thus copy the new column's text as a column. Nor could I find a way to delete the original column, even if I moved columns around.

I tried the Utilities drawer and the Inspector - no apparent help there. I then searched the documentation. Nada. Finally I searched the forum - and found the one old complaint about this, in which hoardingbottles was treated as if he did not have a valid issue. This ticked me off.

hoardingbottles had a good idea: find a way to indicate in the Utilities drawer that the left hand column is different. Or like I say, just put a quick line in the help - not to "fix" this relatively minor issue, but simply to admit of its existence. Had I found such a line, my vexation would quickly have subsided; obviously no app can do everything or be perfect in every way.

Usable Thought
2008-11-15, 02:22 AM
However, if you've already populated the outline column in multiple rows, this won't work so well, and removing the text would be less convenient unless you use something like this Applescript

I might give that script a try next time this situation comes up - would be a good workaround. Thanks.

DerekM
2008-11-17, 12:10 PM
This may be true from a coding perspective, but it is false from a GUI perspective. Once the functionality for deleting or inserting columns was added to the app, it created the potential for a user wanting to delete the 1st column - and there is nothing in the GUI to indicate visually that this can't be done. Nor does your "logic" that "this is the outline" hold up - such logic needs visual support from the GUI and doesn't have it.

Do you have any suggestions for a UI indication? All UI methods of deleting a column are disabled when you select the outline column, these would be the Reorganize -> Remove Column and the Remove Column toolbar button if you add it.

I tried the Utilities drawer and the Inspector - no apparent help there. I then searched the documentation. Nada. Finally I searched the forum - and found the one old complaint about this, in which hoardingbottles was treated as if he did not have a valid issue. This ticked me off.

hoardingbottles had a good idea: find a way to indicate in the Utilities drawer that the left hand column is different. Or like I say, just put a quick line in the help - not to "fix" this relatively minor issue, but simply to admit of its existence. Had I found such a line, my vexation would quickly have subsided; obviously no app can do everything or be perfect in every way.

You can not remove, add, or reorder columns in the utility drawer. The style palette in the utility drawer is for managing styles so it's not necessarily the best place to put such an indicator. But, if you have any specific suggestion I'll be happy to enter a request for this so we consider this for OO4's interface. And if not, I can make a note of it anyways.

I did not mention this last time, but unfortunately it's not as easy as it seems to update the help file. Any change to the help file, the same goes for UI changes, needs to be localized for all the languages we offer. So any change needs to be strongly considered if it's not coming along with a major release that requires localizing. If you think it would help, I can add this to the online FAQ. Just let me know.

Thanks!