gmail / general disappointment

[narcvs]

Omni's products are generally incredibly high quality.

Omnigraffer is by far the best flowchart design software I ever came across.

Omnioutliner is perhaps not necessary but does what it's meant to really well without bloat (i.e. good software)

Omnidisksweeper - orgasmicly simple solution to a common problem. Elegant.

But Omniweb? I mean - come on! The site prefs are clever, neat, whatever. Workspaces, sure sure. But when gmail doesn't even work properly...? They're web developers, right? So how can they not know how common folk want to use the web?

Before deploying such a hyped-up application, and especially from such a professional developing team as omnigroup, run throgouh testing of the most common web apps.

Sorry for the bashing, but when everything else they produce is so excellent, such a bomb is simply upsetting.

[Forrest]

But Omniweb? I mean - come on! The site prefs are clever, neat, whatever. Workspaces, sure sure. But when gmail doesn't even work properly...? They're web developers, right? So how can they not know how common folk want to use the web?

Before deploying such a hyped-up application, and especially from such a professional developing team as omnigroup, run throgouh testing of the most common web apps.

Sorry for the bashing, but when everything else they produce is so excellent, such a bomb is simply upsetting.

OmniWeb was deployed before the Google founders were out of college, long before Google was created and long before Gmail was envisioned. Most of the technologies that Gmail uses didn't even exist when OmniWeb was deployed.

There's been a lot of updates since its deployment. There's also a lot of quirks with Gmail which cause it to not work with with Apple's own Web Kit. Heck, I have yet to find a browser that works well with Gmail. IE7 & FF2 both have issues with Gmail.

Sure OmniWeb has more than some, but Google is continually releasing updates to Gmail, some of which don't work right in browsers. Gmail is still in beta, after all.

I assume you've searched the forum and mailing list to discover some of the reasons Gmail doesn't play well with OW, and some of the tweaks one can do to make it work better, right?

[arglborps]

I also think here we cannot blame Omni much for the inconsistent way some browsers handle JavaScript. And especially the problem that Apple has completely failed to come up with a proper JavaScript engine for Safari and is finally catching up with their nightly builds.

It is only now that everyone does AJAX on their sites - some with less success than others - that JavaScript becomes more of an issue, especially when the developers don't test their JS against all major browsers. I partly blame Google for not yet fully supporting Safari, especially with Google's CEO being on Apple's board of directors, but as much I blame Apple for still not having implemented JS in a way that actually works, or at least not deploying some of the fruits of their nightly builds as a dearly needed update to the official WebKit.

Omni, ego te absolvo ;-)

[philonous]

That's pretty much it. Webkit development is still seriously lagging behind other major browser engines, and Omniweb is not a major revenue generator for Omnigroup. So, more than anything, it's simple economics that's keeping Omniweb development back. At least, my impression is that the factor of the revenue divided by the resources dedicated to the project is MUCH lower for OW than any other Ogroup product.

C'est la vie.

[jem]

Webkit development is still seriously lagging behind other major browser engines

Is it? In what way?

[neurobashing]

Is it? In what way?

Developer mindshare. Recent versions - the nightlies - are of extremely high quality, but we won't see that in production until Leopard. So right now a lot of people just ignore WebKit. "IE and FF are all that matter anyway", or so the (lazy, IMHO) logic goes.

But dig through the bugzilla for WebKit; there's Googlers in there fixing bugs, or at least aware of things and working with the WebKit people when it's server-side.

[Splutter]

Recent versions - the nightlies - are of extremely high quality, but we won't see that in production until Leopard. So right now a lot of people just ignore WebKit.

In the mean time... I've been trying Omniweb on Webkit nightlies and it runs a treat - Webkit with Keychain access, but without the superb web inspector I know.

Save an Automator 'Run Shell Script' as a new Application to launch it from your dock :)

export DYLD_FRAMEWORK_PATH=/Applications/WebKit.app/Contents/Resources/
open/Applications/OmniWeb.app

Ha! I boobed here - works for Shiira, but on downloading a Webkit nightly noticed OmniWeb wasn't changing the WK version, so it isn't actually picking it up. Oh the shame...

[Rachael]

so, a couple things.

1 - here's the Open (http://bugs.webkit.org/buglist.cgi?keywords=GoogleBug&resolution=---) and Total (http://bugs.webkit.org/buglist.cgi?keywords=GoogleBug) google bugs in Webkit's bug database currently. Most, if not all, of these are gmail bugs.

2 - Splutter: that won't work, because we embed a slightly-customized copy of webkit in OmniWeb itself. This means 2 things: That you can't just drop a nightly in, and that we can have OmniWeb using a newer version of webkit than the one on the system.

Hope that helps a bit.

[Splutter]

Hope that helps a bit.

Thanks Rachel, looking forward to the next OW as (in this instance) latest webkit is working pretty well with GMail/Blogger/WordPress etc.

[philonous]

Hmm... Well, I stand corrected. Nevertheless, this has turned into a bit of a semantic argument: even if webkit is more compliant, can the rest of the world be really wrong? When FF and IE and Safari work better, what recourse does the user have? "When in Rome..." the saying goes.

I will try one of the webkit nightlies. Still, it would be so nice to have OW 5.6, pretty PPLLLLLLLEEEEEAAAASSSEEEEE!!!

[neurobashing]

Hmm... Well, I stand corrected. Nevertheless, this has turned into a bit of a semantic argument: even if webkit is more compliant, can the rest of the world be really wrong? When FF and IE and Safari work better, what recourse does the user have? "When in Rome..." the saying goes.

50,000 Elvis fans, eh?

The entire situation is a mess. Consider http://geckoisgecko.org/. Gecko 1.8 works great when you introduce yourself as "Firefox" but not so much when you do so as "Camino". That's kinda where we as Omniweb users are, although technically OW differs from the shipping Safari.

[adamwebb]

I just wish there would be more regular/significant updates to this great browser. For those who have deemed it a sufficiently 'sweet' browser to pay for, some sort of attention by the development team for regular updates would be nice ... even if the updates aren't huge enhancements. Overall I use it, b/c it's better than Safari (gives me more control), and on my old PB G4 Firefox is too slow. Worth the small cost.

Overall I'm a pleased customer, but my constant desire for the latest and greatest needs satisfying! (and yes...I'm looking to get a MacBook or iMac to replace the ol' PB)

[Chiller]

I believe there is frustration with both Safari / OmniWeb / Webkit development. As one who is forced to work in Windows at work, it is hard not to notice the pace that the Mozilla Organization has set for updating Firefox. From roadmaps to frequent minor updates, all others are slow in comparasion.

That being said, on the Mac side, no one has slower browser updates than Apple. When is the last time you saw a Safari update?

[neurobashing]

I believe there is frustration with both Safari / OmniWeb / Webkit development. As one who is forced to work in Windows at work, it is hard not to notice the pace that the Mozilla Organization has set for updating Firefox. From roadmaps to frequent minor updates, all others are slow in comparasion.

That being said, on the Mac side, no one has slower browser updates than Apple. When is the last time you saw a Safari update?

Apple's damned in every direction. One, they are ostensibly working with the KDE folks, who get extremely ... testy ... when they feel Apple is not doing things "just so" although I think that situation is mostly resolved.

Two, they have to track with independent app developers: the s60 branch, and now Apollo, and Google (their GWT thingee, or whatever it's called), not to mention the Omni folks, and Shiira and whatever else is using WebKit/WebCore/etc.

Third they have to deal with their installed base. Rev'ing Safari in such a way that breaks sites would be problematic.

I agree, strongly, that Apple has dropped the ball overall with handling Safari, since I similarly think that (especially in the last 3-5 months) they have a browser on their hands that is in many ways, far superior to Firefox/Gecko (performance, embeddability, cross-platform). I think Leopard is going to be a big test for them: they're going to have to work to convince the web developer masses to really target Safari, AND they're going to have to stay out in front and in the open to remind them "it's in your best interests to make it work in Safari!". They've been hibernating, sitting on a gold mine.

[philonous]

I'm not so sure they have been hibernating on the iPod/iTunes gold mine.

[philonous]

50,000 Elvis fans, eh?

The entire situation is a mess. Consider http://geckoisgecko.org/. Gecko 1.8 works great when you introduce yourself as "Firefox" but not so much when you do so as "Camino". That's kinda where we as Omniweb users are, although technically OW differs from the shipping Safari.

Indeed, 50,000,000 Elvis fans.

I think OW 5.5x worked a lot better because it started presenting itself as Webkit instead of omniweb. The gecko browsers are very nice, but Firefox is the only one with enough features (especially the add-ons! have you tried firefoxy or SearchStatus?) to merit regular use. Omniweb is certainly the best of the webkit browsers, but the javascript problems really make it a pain in the a**. After about 10 minutes of browsing, OW idles at about 5-10% of cpu, and I have to shut down OW because 7% of cpu usage start slowing down my 867 MHz G4 PB. (Especially since I have 5-10 applications running at any given time.)

OW is really there. It is so damn close. If only 5.6 were to go beta soon...

[neurobashing]

OW is really there. It is so damn close. If only 5.6 were to go beta soon...

I've got a dollar on "right before WWDC". At least I hope so.

[Loveanale]

I've just downloaded Omni for the first time and have just read this thread so I tried gmail with Omni - works just fine for me. Opens the same as FF, Camino, Safari, Shiira.......

[daiyi666@yahoo.com]

I've just downloaded Omni for the first time and have just read this thread so I tried gmail with Omni - works just fine for me. Opens the same as FF, Camino, Safari, Shiira.......

It just doesn't include chat or "select all" options, which are not displayed at all. Chat I can live without; trying to delete all that spam without "select all," however, just is impossible.

For how little I check gmail, OW will remain my main browser. Just can't get used to FF, even though it has some great features. Too damn slow, compared to OW.

[Splutter]

I've just downloaded Omni for the first time and have just read this thread so I tried gmail with Omni - works just fine for me. Opens the same as FF, Camino, Safari, Shiira.......

Compare the WYSIWYG feature by feature in Omniweb against a nightly webkit and you will see how webkit has advanced.

[neurobashing]

It just doesn't include chat or "select all" options, which are not displayed at all. Chat I can live without; trying to delete all that spam without "select all," however, just is impossible.

For how little I check gmail, OW will remain my main browser. Just can't get used to FF, even though it has some great features. Too damn slow, compared to OW.

I've got both the "Select: All, None, Read, Unread, Starred, Unstarred" and "Delete all spam messages now" in gmail. I use them all the time.

[daiyi666@yahoo.com]

I've got both the "Select: All, None, Read, Unread, Starred, Unstarred" and "Delete all spam messages now" in gmail. I use them all the time.

Interesting. May I ask about your Keychain preferences for certificates? This has given me some issues with https URLs. I would love to have gmail work a little better on OW.

Thanks.

[neurobashing]

Interesting. May I ask about your Keychain preferences for certificates? This has given me some issues with https URLs. I would love to have gmail work a little better on OW.

Thanks.
I haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about, so I'm going to go with "uh, whatever the default is, i guess, as I haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about".

It says "Off" to the first 2 items and the 3rd item is greyed out. I think this is the first time I've run Keychain Access.app in 2007.

[daiyi666@yahoo.com]

It says "Off" to the first 2 items and the 3rd item is greyed out. I think this is the first time I've run Keychain Access.app in 2007.

Hmmm. That did not solve the issue for me.

But I'm not sure that having selected "off" is the most secure mode for your keychain certificates. I've posed this question here and elsewhere but never got a response. It was brought to my attention when checking secure https URLs suddenly started producing warnings about certificates not being secure.

Back to OW: the only way I got it display "select all..." was to click on the "nocheckbrowser" link. But then the mailbox links no longer worked. I can check gmail with my regular email client, so I'm not too concerned. But I am curious why it works for you but not for me. Build details:

Product: OmniWeb-5.5
Tag: OmniWeb-5.5.4-v607.17

[LCPGUY]

It just doesn't include chat or "select all" options, which are not displayed at all. Chat I can live without; trying to delete all that spam without "select all," however, just is impossible.

For how little I check gmail, OW will remain my main browser. Just can't get used to FF, even though it has some great features. Too damn slow, compared to OW.

Strange. GMAIL Select All works fine for me in 5.5.4. I don't use chat so can't comment on that.

[daiyi666@yahoo.com]

It works fine in Safari for me.

Hmmmmmm.......

[JKT]

What are you identifying to google.com as? Try Firefox as the browser identity in OmniWeb to get more functionality, until 5.6 shows its face in public.

[mihnat]

I have used FF 2.0 Mac as the browser identity for GMail and GReader and overall they are working OK for me.
Mike

[Ilgaz]

What are you identifying to google.com as? Try Firefox as the browser identity in OmniWeb to get more functionality, until 5.6 shows its face in public.

But browser spoofing will create issues since Firefox'es browser model (Mozilla) is completely different from KHTML/Webkit.

I think they are actually sending Firefox specific data to do things. Not doing just to make Safari/Omniweb or other webkit users mad.

I also think they decide to disable stuff because it doesn't pass their quality tests on that specific browser.

I would spoof as Safari 2 but not Firefox.

[Splutter]

Nice to see OW sp is working increasingly well with GMail. Not sure when it happened, but I see the rollover info boxes now work for Contacts :)