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dingoltlt
2006-05-10, 01:54 PM
Would be nice to switch from OW's tab style to the oldfashion tab bar.

Forrest
2006-05-10, 02:51 PM
You mean to have the tabs go across the top of the browser?

dingoltlt
2006-05-13, 07:33 AM
yes sir....

that one!

j.a.duke
2006-05-15, 11:08 AM
Would be nice to switch from OW's tab style to the oldfashion tab bar.
Why would anyone want to have tabs across the top? (Note that this isn't an attack on the poster, but a simple question)

The main reason I use & love OW is the sidebar tabs. I have occasion to use Safari or Camino and find that navigating the tabs across the top is one of my biggest complaints about their UI.

revs
2006-05-16, 03:28 AM
For one they take less screen real estate.

Also I find that I dont need thumbnails of sites - when browsing forums they all look the same - Text and tables! - so I dont use the thumbnail to choose the correct item.

Personally I also find it much quicker to use a "old fashion" style tab bar as oposed to the thumbnails - I find it is much more work to move the mouse to the side and then up and down over the thumbnails.
To move side to side for oldfashioned tabs I simply move my wrist slightly, for thumbnails down the side i have to move my whole arm back (this is on a high res screen, on lower res screens I doubt this would be as much of a problem)

After saying all that though - i do liek the thumbnail view, and have got used to it (hated it to start). But an option for a oldfashioned tab bar would be welcomed.

Floach
2006-05-16, 04:24 AM
I would love an option for the old-style tabs; the current drawer/thumbnail style just bugs the hell out of me. It takes up far too much screen real estate and constantly distracts me. I have a very difficult time changing my focus from a web page to the drawer, since glancing up near the titlebar for tabs is in my muscle memory.

This is the one thing I genuinely don't like about Omniweb; everything else kicks total butt.

Forrest
2006-05-16, 08:13 AM
Wow, I think that's the first time I've heard someone say they didn't like thumbnail tabs. I really like them

I've got a question about top-tabs, maybe you guys can help me with it. If I've got a site that has the same title on every page, and I've got 20 tabs open, how can I tell which one is which? Also, say I've got 30 tabs open so each one shows only the first couple letters, how do you tell which one is which site?

Btw, if you don't like the thumbnails you can switch to the list view. you can also resize it so that it's small an you only get a letter or two from the title of each page, just like regular tabs. ;)

JKT
2006-05-16, 12:37 PM
I think your preference largely depends on how many tabs you typically have open in a window at any one time. For my style of browsing where I have tens of tabs open at any one time in the same window, the conventional tab model is simply awful. You can't tell what tab is what and anything beyond the e.g. tenth tab is shoved into a pop-up menu and is not remotely easily accessed while the remaining tabs are reduced to useless nothingness in terms of the information they display.

If you only ever have three tabs open in a window then it is OK.

The biggest advantage to me of the vertical tab drawer (other than the visual cue as to what each tab contains which is a given) is that I can use my scroll wheel with it to quickly find tabs that are currently off screen. The second biggest advantage is the visual cue for rearranging tabs to group them. With a conventional tab bar this is nigh on impossible to achieve effectively.

Floach
2006-05-17, 05:48 AM
I'd be perfectly happy with a hidden setting in the plist to change the layout. Just *something* so I don't have the big, honking draw and thumbnails (and no, I don't find the "condensed" tabs in the drawer acceptable, either; the drawer is the problem, really.)

ollieman
2006-05-17, 10:11 AM
The real issue is that people with small screens (1024x768) have to scroll side to side when using sidesaddle tabs and visiting a wide website (nytimes.com)

That's why I can't use omniweb as my primary. I spoke with the folks at the omnigroup and this addition is not going to happen. They have other priorities.

Forrest
2006-05-17, 10:59 AM
The NYT site is poorly done. At 1024x768 I can't even view it as full screen with the dock set to the side (even if it's small.)

Depending on the audience, I'm not against wide sites. But going to nearly the full 1024 wide is making too many assumptions. Amazon is more than 800px, but it still works with the tabs on the side and my dock on the side.

There are very few sites with which this is a problem. I would suggest contacting the site to let them know they've built it too wide.

jphaag
2006-09-08, 12:14 PM
I recently switched from a 17" PB to a MacBook.
I just shrank the tab bar a bit and all is fine. And I even habe the habit of not expanding the OW window fully to the right edge of the screen, because I like to have the option to drag a link etc. to the desktop.

gvmelbrty
2006-09-10, 05:04 AM
I can't stand the tab drawer either. It's the one and only thing about OW I really dislike. Even if I had a bigger screen (which I don't), I still wouldn't like it. All I want is the *option* to put the tabs in a horizontal bar across the top; the tab drawer can stay for those who like it.

I wrote to OW to voice my opinion and they said they have no plans to change it. :confused: Bummer.

Forrest
2006-09-10, 09:17 AM
I can't stand the tab drawer either. It's the one and only thing about OW I really dislike. Even if I had a bigger screen (which I don't), I still wouldn't like it. All I want is the *option* to put the tabs in a horizontal bar across the top; the tab drawer can stay for those who like it.

I wrote to OW to voice my opinion and they said they have no plans to change it. :confused: Bummer.

So what is it you dislike about the tab drawer?

Drayon
2006-09-10, 07:03 PM
So what is it you dislike about the tab drawer?

How much further detailed explanation do you need? Obviously nothing the thousands of ppl who HATE the drawer is NEVER going to change your stance an YOU sir will argue until you are blue in the face no matter how many ppl submit their dislikes to the drawer. I don't think any compelling argument from others about this tragic design will have ANY effect in your opinion.

Again my reasons are. I run on a powerbook, limited display space for 1. The browser window is placed to the right of my display,with 3 inches gap on the left of the display. This area is populated by my iChat user list, my proteus user list and my mail client and another browsers downloads window.

Tab thumbnail, i see absolutely NO point in this, for one only about 6 tabs in this view can be listed, secondly i cant even distinguish what is in the tab and 3 i only need to know the name of the site wich is clearly seen when the tabs are in list view. This is NOT a picture viewing application, which obviously large image thumbnails are useful, but this is web browser.

The tab orientation screws up the page up/down arrow key commands we are used to in Camino, Safari, iCab and god knows what other browser. In this browser it selects tabs, well in other browsers selecting tabs is Command+shift+arrow left/right. On this issue if you are a powerbook user you cannot use 1 single hand to move from page top/bottom. You need to use 2 hands, one on the 'fn' key the other on the arrow up/down unless of course you have hands the size of an Abominable Snowman ;-)

Back to space, if i have 5 tabs open set in list view the drawer extends to the entire length of the web browser in such case covering the entire left side of my screen with the actual list view of tabs only consumes maybe 2 inches max of space.

Now i close the stupid drawer to see what else is happening in my other apps, i switch back to the browser an create another tab an now the drawer automatically opens up again forcing me to close it again.

The thing is the Horizontal top of browser Tabs is a time proven method, it doesn't require a different method just to be different much like the start button in windows so why bother implementing and wasting so many resources designing an inferior poorly thought out concept with other things just work better. Now that the drawer is here an the hard work has been done im not saying scrap it an remove it. Just implement Horizontal Top of window Tabs to keep the rest of us happy. Hell if Alexander Claus the 'SOLE' iCab developer could implement Tabs in 1 week im sure the cocoa gurus at Omni could do the same.

Even the marketing team would have a field day, 'hey our browser offers tabbed browsing and goes way beyond the rest of the players in town we offer 2 choices to suit the most discerning users wanting the 'Ultimate browser'.

Horizontal re-orderable Top of Browser windows please.

Petition for this maybe in order or maybe just roll some stubborn heads at OmniG ;-) j/k'n

Drayon
2006-09-10, 07:17 PM
Hey Forest, since you are pretty much the ONLY proponent AGAINST horizontal Top of Window Tabs why are you SO valiantly against the idea when all you would have to do is click on a check box in a preference pane to disable it? The inclusion of this new feature would have ZERO impact on you in reality. Now if you beloved Tab drawer was completely deprecated then id appreciate your strong motives.

But just don't get you :-(( Everyone has asked for this as an 'additional' feature.

Forrest
2006-09-10, 07:43 PM
Wow. Let's recap what just happened. A user came in and posted his first (and thus far only) post:
I can't stand the tab drawer either. It's the one and only thing about OW I really dislike. Even if I had a bigger screen (which I don't), I still wouldn't like it. All I want is the *option* to put the tabs in a horizontal bar across the top; the tab drawer can stay for those who like it.

I wrote to OW to voice my opinion and they said they have no plans to change it. :confused: Bummer.

All he expresses is a dislike but gives nothing objective to go on. So I think "well, maybe he's just having a hard time getting accustom to the graphical tabs and perhaps, if I knew the issue he was having, someone here could offer a tip that would help the guy out."

So I simply ask "So what is it you dislike about the tab drawer?"

Because, knowing this, someone here might be able to help. Or, perhaps he's discovered a bug that needs to be fixed.

Then you come in and post, starting with:
How much further detailed explanation do you need?

I intentionally quoted and replied to gvmelbrty. Why? Because I've seen your tirades where you dish out personal attacks, and I want to signify that I'm attempting to help this user.

Then you go on to attack me, attack the OG, and even go so far as to make stuff up to bolster your argument.

If you want to actually engage in a discussion with the users here and see what feedback they can give you to help you, don't insult them. If you just want your voice heard by the OG, you can use the Help > Send Feedback... option from within OW.

Len Case
2006-09-10, 09:10 PM
You know, I don't have a problem with horizontal tabs--but doing them would take time away from something else. Everyone has their own pet peeve: for example, Forrest would rather we add back sizes next to images in the page info (among other things). He has even gone so far as to revert back to 5.1.3 because for him 5.5 is too much of a step back.

But where is our time best spent. Right now I think getting betas of 5.5.1 with the improvements to WebKit is probably the best use of our time. After that, fixing the regressions caused by the update (auto-complete and zoomed editing so far) as well as working on the regressions of 5.5 compared to 5.1 (such as the missing image sizes). Then going back and hitting the worst of the issues from before 5.5.

This particular issue might fall into that third category.

Drayon
2006-09-11, 05:18 AM
Wow. Let's recap what just happened. A user came in and posted his first (and thus far only) post:

All he expresses is a dislike but gives nothing objective to go on. So I think "well, maybe he's just having a hard time getting accustom to the graphical tabs and perhaps, if I knew the issue he was having, someone here could offer a tip that would help the guy out."

So I simply ask "So what is it you dislike about the tab drawer?"

Because, knowing this, someone here might be able to help. Or, perhaps he's discovered a bug that needs to be fixed.

Then you come in and post, starting with:

I intentionally quoted and replied to gvmelbrty. Why? Because I've seen your tirades where you dish out personal attacks, and I want to signify that I'm attempting to help this user.

Then you go on to attack me, attack the OG, and even go so far as to make stuff up to bolster your argument.

If you want to actually engage in a discussion with the users here and see what feedback they can give you to help you, don't insult them. If you just want your voice heard by the OG, you can use the Help > Send Feedback... option from within OW.

Forest man, i've been to this forum for a few days now and there are many posts by ppl explaining why they HATE the drawer Tabs and that is without using the search engine. Before this forum, many ppl have also stated their objection to the drawer Tab with reasoning for a LONG time on the macnn forums. Versiontracker comments have also provided complaints, man its EVERYWHERE. I think you are trying to make petty allowances for the blatantly and obvious designs which many ppl view as being flawed, how can you possibly even suggest you can offer help? That is completely absurd. Even more absurd is your claim of my so called 'personal attacks' directed at you. If you think strongly presented opinions are personal attacks then i seriously think you need to stop visiting the child care center, grow a spine and remove the cotton wool bubble you seem to be enclosed in because you be in a real shock if you actually were in a situation when face with a real world personal attack.

So can you or will you acknowledge the basis of 'anyone's' comments which may be negative on the topic of Drawer Tabs or is that 'stubborn' gene going to overrule anything that is said? finally did you design the Drawer Tab? Im just curious why you so adamantly defend the topic?

I would have preferred to enter this conversation and just say i wish there was an option for Horizontal Tabs without going into a multi post tirade with you explaining exactly why we don't like the design an have you responding telling us how wonderful it is for you, an why WE shouldn't want Horizontal Tabs, i never read any of your reasons why we shouldn't want/need horizontal tabs nor has anyone asked you for a detailed objection.

So in summary please don't get so upset if other don't agree with designs that work for you.... chin up ;-) And remember we only ask for the Top side Tab thing as an OPTION so you really have no need to start crying :D

Drayon
2006-09-11, 05:36 AM
You know, I don't have a problem with horizontal tabs--but doing them would take time away from something else. Everyone has their own pet peeve: for example, Forrest would rather we add back sizes next to images in the page info (among other things). He has even gone so far as to revert back to 5.1.3 because for him 5.5 is too much of a step back.

But where is our time best spent. Right now I think getting betas of 5.5.1 with the improvements to WebKit is probably the best use of our time. After that, fixing the regressions caused by the update (auto-complete and zoomed editing so far) as well as working on the regressions of 5.5 compared to 5.1 (such as the missing image sizes). Then going back and hitting the worst of the issues from before 5.5.

This particular issue might fall into that third category.

You seem like a very reasonable man Len. I appreciate everyone has a peeve. For some of us who want the horizontal tabs we simply don't have the option to revert back to a previous OW version. Forest is at least fortunate, since he can revert to an older version for his issue. If you took a survey of web browser users and asked them if they would want horizontal tabs over other regressive features im sure the results would be overwhelmingly in the favor of the Tabs inclusion. From a users perspective major application usability features like horizontal tabs would be a far higher priority than small niggly bugs which could be resolved in small maintenance updates.

Im not exactly sure how many ppl are actively developing OW but to put things into perspective (by no means am i comparing development competence here) but there is 1 an only 1 developer of iCab an to his credit he managed to graft Tabs to his carbon application in about a week due to customer demand, the poor guy doesn't even use interface builder :-(

You say you don't have a problem with horizontal tabs, can this be taken to mean this feature is a planned reality sometime in the near future, or a nice way of saying it can be done but we won't?

Best

JKT
2006-09-11, 06:35 AM
Hey Forest, since you are pretty much the ONLY proponent AGAINST horizontal Top of Window Tabs<snip>?
He isn't. Case against:

1. How many tabs do I have open? Is it 6 or is it 60?
Safari:
http://homepage.mac.com/jtyzack/.Pictures/screenshots/Safaritabs.jpg
Firefox:
http://homepage.mac.com/jtyzack/.Pictures/screenshots/Firefoxtabs.jpg

2. What is the difference/similarity between all those tabs - is the Untitled page the same in each or different?

3. Why do the tabs constantly change size depending on how many I have open and therefore mess with my mousing memory?

4. How do I quickly scan through all those tabs to find out what their content is?

5. Which of those tabs have I looked at since they loaded, which haven't I looked at?

6. Which ones can I close because I don't need them anymore, which ones should I leave open?

7. How do I even close any of the tabs that have dropped off the screen into the side menus and are no longer occupying the tab bar?

Personally, I think the people who constantly bring up the few flaws in the vertical thumbnail tabs are far guiltier of ignoring the several horrible usability flaws in horizontal tabs. Putting it simply, horizontal tabs eat donkey's balls in terms of usability. The only advantage they have is size, but that is also their biggest flaw as well, as amply demonstrated above. The only people for whom horizontal tabs are remotely useful are those that only ever have up to six to eight pages open at any one time, and if you are one of those people, then OmniWeb is likely to be overkill for you anyway.

Finally,

8. Why is it that everyone who complains about the size of the drawer never, ever bother to try making it smaller?

JKT
2006-09-11, 06:44 AM
The tab orientation screws up the page up/down arrow key commands we are used to in Camino, Safari, iCab and god knows what other browser. In this browser it selects tabs, well in other browsers selecting tabs is Command+shift+arrow left/right. On this issue if you are a powerbook user you cannot use 1 single hand to move from page top/bottom. You need to use 2 hands, one on the 'fn' key the other on the arrow up/down unless of course you have hands the size of an Abominable Snowman ;-)
Command-up. Command-down. (Gosh, logical isn't it!)
Spacebar, shift-spacebar. (Standard in Safari and Firefox too)
The thing is the Horizontal top of browser Tabs is a time proven method, it doesn't require a different method just to be different much like the start button in windows so why bother implementing and wasting so many resources designing an inferior poorly thought out concept with other things just work better.
Horizontal tabs are a time-proven crap UI, with a poorly thought out inferior design.

Hey, expressed like that, does it sound like an over-opinionated one-sided view to anyone else?

Handycam
2006-09-11, 12:14 PM
Well put JKT. Good examples for why the tab drawer is better UI.

But I'm tired of this whole discussion: Omniweb is a browser which has a drawer with thumbnails of your open tabs (which can be switched to text).

If you don't like that, there are other browsers to use. No one is forcing you to use OW. And many of those who have sought out OW, and paid for it, do so because we like its differences and find its UI and feature set superior to other choices.

d00d
2006-11-08, 09:06 AM
Allow me to break this down for all those so against horizontal tabs.

1. We are aware of the problems with horizontal tabs. We don't care.
2. Some of use have smaller screens (I use a Powerbook 12"). Complaining to websites that use 1024 width pages is NOT a solution.
3. We're not asking for it in addition to the tab drawer. It's a subjective preference. GET OVER IT.

Let me tell you from personal experience that I like the tab drawer just fine on my Mac Pro. It's not perfect, but I am warming up to it. The tab drawer is simply not feasible for use on my Powerbook. It's never going to be. Ever. I'm not being stubborn. It's a fact.

I'm going to submit my request to feedback, but I felt compelled to respond. The attitude of the regulars here towards those wanting horizontal tabs was a bit rude. Heck, I could live with OmniWeb style tabs if they were contained in a horizontal drawer.

My two cents. Feel free to rail against me and tell me my personal preference is wrong.

Forrest
2006-11-08, 03:43 PM
1. We are aware of the problems with horizontal tabs. We don't care.

Wow, talk about a rash generalization. I just skimmed back over this thread. The reason I asked so many questions was because I was trying to figure out the exact issues just in case there was another way to solve the original issue. I wouldn't dare make the assumption that everyone who posts here knows every last detail.

2. Some of use have smaller screens (I use a Powerbook 12").

I do too.

Complaining to websites that use 1024 width pages is NOT a solution.

Actually it is. Having run many large web sites over the years, including a few you've probably been to, I can tell you first-hand that if we get enough feedback on a particular topic we will make a change. Or get fired, one of the two. ;) Sites like the NYT have too broad of an audience to assume that they're not leaving a substantial portion of their audience out with such a decision. If it was adobe.com, that's a different story.

The attitude of the regulars here towards those wanting horizontal tabs was a bit rude.

Here's a good article for you: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,70179-0.html

Studies show, that 70-90% of communication is lost when communicating via plain text. In other words, when one tries to infer the meaning from a plain text message, they only have 10-30% of the information needed to properly do so.

With that all said, I think Lens said it best with:
You know, I don't have a problem with horizontal tabs--but doing them would take time away from something else. Everyone has their own pet peeve: for example, Forrest would rather we add back sizes next to images in the page info (among other things). He has even gone so far as to revert back to 5.1.3 because for him 5.5 is too much of a step back.

But where is our time best spent. Right now I think getting betas of 5.5.1 with the improvements to WebKit is probably the best use of our time. After that, fixing the regressions caused by the update (auto-complete and zoomed editing so far) as well as working on the regressions of 5.5 compared to 5.1 (such as the missing image sizes). Then going back and hitting the worst of the issues from before 5.5.

This particular issue might fall into that third category.

d00d
2006-11-08, 04:42 PM
Wow, talk about a rash generalization. I just skimmed back over this thread. The reason I asked so many questions was because I was trying to figure out the exact issues just in case there was another way to solve the original issue. I wouldn't dare make the assumption that everyone who posts here knows every last detail. As a person who is fan of horizontal tabs in some situations and you're not, I think I'm better prepared to identify with those individuals. Besides, JKT was perfectly happy to lump us all together and make all kinds of assumptions about us.
I do too.Terrific, then maybe you know what I'm talking about.
Actually it is. Having run many large web sites over the years, including a few you've probably been to, I can tell you first-hand that if we get enough feedback on a particular topic we will make a change. Or get fired, one of the two. ;) Sites like the NYT have too broad of an audience to assume that they're not leaving a substantial portion of their audience out with such a decision. If it was adobe.com, that's a different story.Well, it's not a solution because:
1. It requires me to repeatedly write emails day in and day out.
2. You even say that not all websites are going to bend to my will.

Here's a good article for you: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,70179-0.html

Studies show, that 70-90% of communication is lost when communicating via plain text. In other words, when one tries to infer the meaning from a plain text message, they only have 10-30% of the information needed to properly do so.I'm not misinterpreting the arrogance in JKT's post. He's calling people that simply want horizontal tabs in ADDITION to the current style "guiltier" of ignoring flaws in horizontal tabs, as if the fact that we're fine with those issues is a bad thing. He then said felt compelled to make a crude statement about horizontal tab usability, completely ignoring that for many users (as evidenced by this thread and most discussions about OmniWeb outside of these forums) horizontal tabs are much more usable than OmniWeb tabs. A large part of usability is in subjective use.

With that all said, I think Lens said it best with:I can read, and it's pretty insulting to requote that passage as if I can't. Further, what Len said doesn't change the attitude clouding this forum, nor does it change out desire to have the feature added. He merely made a commentary on priority and where in the timeline it would be likely to take place. It doesn't try to find some kind of flaw in the desire as you passively (by asking what the issue is) and JKT actively (by trying to perform some "objective" proof about the usability) did.

Can't it just be as simple as some of us not being the biggest fans of the tab drawer in all cases and desiring a different implementation of the same idea?

JKT
2006-11-08, 10:36 PM
I guess my irony and sarcasm wasn't as obvious as I thought it would be. I was deliberately being arrogant and over-opinionated as the person I was responding to was being the same.
Hey, expressed like that, does it sound like an over-opinionated one-sided view to anyone else?
I thought that would have been enough...

begemotik
2006-11-11, 03:48 AM
Hello,

At first I did not like the vertical-tab feature, and I'm running a 19" LCD.

After about one day, however, I became quite used to it, especially when I "open in new tabs" one of my 23 tab bookmarks.

Having the option for users to switch between horizontal and vertical tabs might be something the good folks at Omni could put on their "To Do" list, if they wish. All of this bickering and attitude "copping," however, really serves little purpose.

Regards,
Jim

Forrest
2006-11-11, 08:16 PM
All of this bickering and attitude "copping," however, really serves little purpose.

QFE .

forum member
2006-11-15, 08:27 AM
I prefer vertical tabs.

That said, I have the tab drawer button on my toolbar, and for some sites, I click it so that tab drawer disappears.

Probably not a solution for die-hard horizontal-tab fans, but something you can use in the meantime.

Jon Hicks
2006-11-19, 12:49 PM
Well personally I prefer diagonal tabs, vertical and horizontal tabs are so last year.

I also want my tabs to give off smoke AND be navigable via sudden motion sensor. Slap left side to go to previous tab, slap right to go to next, and shake to reload.

zottel
2006-11-20, 12:58 PM
That one was great. :-) *chuckle*

cakey
2006-11-30, 08:04 PM
I can't really add much to the argument for a horizontal tabs option, but it is the only thing keeping me from buying this browser.

atheos
2006-12-10, 01:25 PM
I love omniweb, but on my 12" powerbook, the tab drawer is a HUGE waste of space. Just give me the option to switch between the horizontal and vertical...On my larger imac, I use the vertical tabs, because I do find them more useful, but I shrink the drawer on my powerbook just to save screen space, making the tabs useless to read. I tend to go back to Safari on my laptop for that reason alone. Using 5.5.2 beta 2. Just adding my 0.02 cents worth...

ndegruchy
2006-12-11, 10:44 AM
I just wish they'd ditch the drawer UI element and use the much sexier side pane (ala iTunes/Mail) and make it collapsible.

Edit: or make it so when there is one tab remaining to auto-hide the tab bar (even temporarily show it if you drag a link to either side)

Handycam
2006-12-11, 12:41 PM
I just wish they'd ditch the drawer UI element and use the much sexier side pane (ala iTunes/Mail) and make it collapsible.

Edit: or make it so when there is one tab remaining to auto-hide the tab bar (even temporarily show it if you drag a link to either side)

I vote for both of what he said.

Forrest
2006-12-11, 01:11 PM
I don't like the auto-hiding bit. That sort of stuff gets annoying on multiple displays.

ndegruchy
2006-12-13, 08:50 AM
I don't like the auto-hiding bit. That sort of stuff gets annoying on multiple displays.an easy fix to make it optional.

diamondsw
2007-02-14, 08:31 PM
Okay, responses like this just piss me off. "I don't like your opinion, so I'm going to say it's completely wrong to have such an opinion."

OmniWeb has always been about giving power and choice to the user. We don't use it for its rendering (we could use Safari for that) - we use it for the interface and its extensive preferences and customization. In other words, we use it because it fits the user well.

A traditional tab bar would be very useful, for the simple reasons that have been pointed out ad nauseum - limited screen real-estate (especially iBooks), muscle memory for key combinations in other applications and platforms, and its better suitability to a small number of tabs. There could even be an option to convert from one tab method to the other as one becomes better suited than the other, or automatically switch from the tab bar to a tab drawer once a certain threshold is reached. How's that for more innovative features OmniWeb could tout?

So why the excessive hostility and obstinance to those who want the option of a traditional tab bar? It doesn't take anything away from those who don't like it, and it satisfies probably the most requested feature since OW went to WebKit.

As for the argument that "time is better spent elsewhere", I disagree. Can anyone come up with something that affects a larger number of current or potential users (those who consider this the single block to their adopting OW)? Furthermore, I find is extremely hard to believe that such a thing would be difficult to implement, given that OmniWeb already has a tab infrastructure - all this would be is a different UI to that underlying code. That's supposed to be one of the major points of Cocoa and OOP/MCV design. If OW isn't designed that way, then you have far more serious problems on your hands.

Now as to your arguments against:

1. How many tabs do I have open? Is it 6 or is it 60?


Answer: Why do I care?

2. What is the difference/similarity between all those tabs - is the Untitled page the same in each or different?

Answer: Why do I care?

3. Why do the tabs constantly change size depending on how many I have open and therefore mess with my mousing memory?

Mousing memory my ass. The tabs on screen will almost never be constant, and it's not like you're using Fitts Law or some other HCI tenant to back it up. Meanwhile, I use the keyboard - it doesn't affect me in the slightest. Screen real-estate devoted to a silly drawer does.

4. How do I quickly scan through all those tabs to find out what their content is?

Sigh, another completely contrived example. When do you actually DO any of these things? Seriously.

5. Which of those tabs have I looked at since they loaded, which haven't I looked at?

And is there a reason this can't be implemented for a tab bar?

6. Which ones can I close because I don't need them anymore, which ones should I leave open?

Again, what does this have to do with a tab bar?

7. How do I even close any of the tabs that have dropped off the screen into the side menus and are no longer occupying the tab bar?

Finally, a valid criticism. However, for the use case that has been presented repeatedly (that of a user who uses a dozen tabs or less - an extremely common case, I might add), it's moot.

Personally, I think the people who constantly bring up the few flaws in the vertical thumbnail tabs are far guiltier of ignoring the several horrible usability flaws in horizontal tabs. Putting it simply, horizontal tabs eat donkey's balls in terms of usability. The only advantage they have is size, but that is also their biggest flaw as well, as amply demonstrated above.

Since three of your examples were contrived, two were completely non-applicable, one is simply incorrect ("mousing memory" - you cannot make a serious argument that it exists in a web browser in the way you are suggesting). Only one makes any sense - one that people asking for a tab bar have generally said is not the case for them (a bazillion tabs).

The only people for whom horizontal tabs are remotely useful are those that only ever have up to six to eight pages open at any one time, and if you are one of those people, then OmniWeb is likely to be overkill for you anyway.

Of course - how many tabs we display is a proper and useful gauge of how advanced a user we are. It has nothing to do with per-site preferences, workspaces, saved sessions, etc.

Essentially, your argument here is "mine's bigger".

8. Why is it that everyone who complains about the size of the drawer never, ever bother to try making it smaller?

Ahem, who says we haven't (except for your assumption). Tell you what - make it take up as little screen real-estate as a tab bar, and see how "usable" it is.

JKT
2007-02-15, 12:16 AM
Contrived? Absolutely not. Every single point I made is something I need from my tabs. Look, I am constantly moving between a lot of tabs (and I mean tens to hundreds spread over many Workspaces) so I do need to be able to see what is in each of them, I do need to be able to access each of them as quickly as I can. So I do care about each and every one of those points I made and the fact that the vertical thumbnail tabs solves each and every one of them for me is great. At work I have to use a PC and I am using Firefox (thankfully I don't have to use IE6 which doesn't even have tabs!). Now that I am using 2.x, the one extension that I found that mimicked the vertical tabs doesn't work and I am SOL, suffering from a completely inferior implementation for my needs, that slows me down greatly when I need to switch between tabs.

Hands up to expressing some assumptions in last two points (and elsewhere) though, but it is comments like this that really get my goat:

The thing is the Horizontal top of browser Tabs is a time proven method, it doesn't require a different method just to be different much like the start button in windows so why bother implementing and wasting so many resources designing an inferior poorly thought out concept with other things just work better.

...and it isn't just here that I have read similar kneejerk "yah booh, vertical tabs suck" reactions.

FWIW, for my points 5 and 6 - it can be implemented with a horizontal tab bar, but look at the screenshots... it hasn't been in Safari or Firefox (1.5 at the time)! If you exceeded a certain number in FF 1.x you can't even see a title on the tab, nevermind see what is unique or different about each - how on earth can you pick the one you need to close or view without clicking through the whole lot? (This is now semi-solved in FF2.0 where the tabs don't go below a certain size so you can at least see some of the title, and the Tab Mix Plus extension lets you colour code the titles to show their status, but AFAIK, Firefox still doesn't do this by default).

Anyway, as people seem to continue to misunderstand the tone of my posts. I apologise in advance for those that take offence. OmniGroup please implement horizontal tabs for those that want them so that I no longer end up expressing myself like an arrogant twat on the subject.

Forrest
2007-02-15, 10:04 AM
As for the argument that "time is better spent elsewhere", I disagree. Can anyone come up with something that affects a larger number of current or potential users (those who consider this the single block to their adopting OW)?

The rest of your post is highly confrontational. This part relates to something I brought up, so I'll answer it.

What affects a larger number of users? The JavaScript garbage collection issue. It has the potential to affect every single OW user.

diamondsw
2007-02-15, 09:56 PM
The rest of your post is highly confrontational. This part relates to something I brought up, so I'll answer it.

Agreed. However, I was responding to something that I felt was highly confrontational.

What affects a larger number of users? The JavaScript garbage collection issue. It has the potential to affect every single OW user.

Good example. I'm perfectly fine with valid examples of more important issues to focus on.

What I'm not fine with is those who frame this as an "either-or" debate, where one system MUST be the only way to do it. It's pretty clear that a large number of people like tabs as they are in OmniWeb, and a large number of people like them as they are in every other application. Sounds like something that should be (and should have always been) a preference. Finally, it's something Omni could continue to add its own flavor and spin to, once again taking something others have done and making it better.

How many users do you think have looked at OmniWeb, seen the lack of "normal" tabs and simply trashed it and moved on? It's hard to argue that OW users aren't aware of tabs - as a paid browser, I would expect it would attract more experienced users, who have likely used tabs extensively elsewhere.

I've been wanting to use OmniWeb since Mac OS X 10.0. At first it was the rendering engine that kept me away. Despite the herculean efforts of Omni, there was just no way they could keep up with the evolution of web standards. OmniWeb 5/5.1 brought in a fresh facelift and WebKit under the hood; I bought it and I really, really want to use it. But I can't sacrifice that much screen space for a handful of tabs.

diamondsw
2007-02-15, 10:05 PM
Contrived? Absolutely not. Every single point I made is something I need from my tabs. Look, I am constantly moving between a lot of tabs (and I mean tens to hundreds spread over many Workspaces) so I do need to be able to see what is in each of them, I do need to be able to access each of them as quickly as I can. So I do care about each and every one of those points I made and the fact that the vertical thumbnail tabs solves each and every one of them for me is great.

When my wife moved to Mac OS X, I tried to put her on Safari at first. Standard, included with the OS, etc. Unfortunately, she quickly exceeded it. While I may only open a handful of tabs, she opens hundreds and hundreds - and quickly brought Safari to its knees. My next attempt was to put her on OmniWeb, both due to its handling of massive numbers of tabs and its session restoring features. Unfortunately, she has an iBook. OmniWeb is simply unusable on such a system - too many sites require 800 or 1024 pixel-wide screens, and it made browsing too difficult. Finally, I gave up on OS integration and put her on Firefox 2.0 with Flashblock. She loves it, and I sigh as things like keychain integration, native UI, and other things that make the Mac the Mac go unused. If she had a widescreen, she'd be on OmniWeb in a heartbeat.

For me, a tab bar just wastes space. With a handful of tabs, either you have a big chunk of unused whitespace, or a bunch of thumbnails. Those thumbnails don't do me any good when each is a different forum page I opened in tabs, or a bunch of MacUpdate pages. Even when they are distinct, I want to focus on the page I'm on, not a bunch of maybe-colorful thumbnails. But it's that, waste a lot of space, or simply not use OmniWeb, and then lose out of all of the other features.

As you can tell, it drives me bonkers. :) I wouldn't complain so bitterly if I didn't desperately want to use OmniWeb.

JKT
2007-02-16, 04:21 AM
I don't think I have said in this thread anywhere that OmniGroup shouldn't add normal tabs (and for those people still using 1024x768 resolutions I do see the desire for it).

I'll say it once more so that it is clear. My 2nd and 3rd posts to this thread were in response to the BS comment that the vertical thumbnail tabs are an inferior interface that shouldn't have been developed when they quite patently are not (and in very many respects are a much superior interface). It is the equivalent of having someone tell me I shouldn't use a Mac because Windows is better.

FWIW, if your wife is using FF, then she might like to get the Tab Mix Plus and Tab Catalog (sic) add-ons. The latter is an OK-ish alternative to having always visible thumbnails (I think it mimics the IE7 method of displaying all tabs, but I haven't used IE7 to know for sure). If it ever gets updated, the OmniWeb style tab sidebar was from an Add-on called Tab Sidebar, but it is incompatible with FF2 (and it is also inferior to the OmniWeb tabs as it doesn't render them in as high a quality as OmniWeb making them less easy to distinguish).

appleimac
2007-02-17, 07:33 AM
Well, OmniWeb Tab, yeah I like it. But, that's really good thing if OmniWeb can have several ways to show tabs. I think this is really important thing, because I know lots people which stopped to use OmniWeb because of this tab style. So If you have a backup make them brainwashing, you can have them. Like "Be prepared and have no regrets.". Oh well, I like the style... you know. :D

Drayon
2007-02-24, 02:09 PM
I HATE thumbnail tabs, and never use them simply because A u can't even read what's in them any way an two they take up way to much space which forces you to scroll yet another part of the UI if you have many tabs. Its simply a dumb idea it reminds me of a Microsoft thing of copying a cool idea an implementing it in a bonheaded way just to pretend they never copied it. What else is dumb about the draw, well on widescreen Powerbook it obscures completely my ichat window which is perched on one side of the display since OW takes up most of the screen it cant be placed anywhere else, 2) i close the dumb draw so i can see what else it going on then i create a new tab in OW an then the draw opens again. This browser is constantly antagonizing me with that damn draw, i wish the stubborn developers would give us horizontal tabs like other browsers as an option.

That way we can have back the logical key commands of 'Page Arrow Up/Down' to scroll instantly to/bottom of pages instead of the stupid 'function key' left/right which we are currently forced to use as default. OW forces tab switching using Command Up/Down CRAZEE!!!! If we get horizontal tabs we can have the more logical Command+Shift Arrow Left/Right to cycle between tabs like Safari.

OW is far better than any othe rbrowser on the planet except their Tab design and the URL AutoComplete and the lack of Offline cache browsing (while a net connection is not available). Sort those things out then move on to other improvements.enhancments...this sheet is critical right now.

seenxu
2007-02-26, 01:15 PM
to my own opinion, omniweb should do consider to provide user with a way to switch back to oldstyle tabbar. :cool:

pros
- somehow eye-candy.
- mouse-over effects on tabs... page title with detailed address

cons
- slow on some old mac, und sometimes a dozen thumbnails rendered at the same time is very resource intensive.
- take up precious browsing space, which will do have bad effects for wider webpage on smaller screen
- Every time load a new tab while browsing will active the tabbar automatically, which I do not find a way to disable. and really annoy me sometimes.

what if learn a lesson from opera, switch between tabs using keystroke with thumbnails, page title etc. In this case user would not use tabbar at all, this saves a lot browsing space indeed.