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-   -   It is still aggravating to work with styles! (http://forums.omnigroup.com/showthread.php?t=480)

gryphonent 2006-05-13 02:30 AM

It is still aggravating to work with styles!
 
OmniOutliner still has an awkward and unintuitive handling, especially when it comes to styles. Reading from feedback on Versiontracker and MacUpdate I’m not the only one complaining about these issues... and they have been present since version 3 came out.

Working with styles in Omni Outliner remains aggravating. Disabling the “Automatic Level Style” doesn’t really help as it seems to be “on” by default for every new document. The way your program handles styles is too complex for users... I think Pages is taking the lead when it comes to simplicity. I’d love to mark “all level 2 rows” then call up the font menu and make changes that are instantly translated onto all level 2 rows. The marker changes to red on the “all level 2 rows button” and I can decide whether to save that change. Keep it simple and stupid.

JKT 2006-05-13 10:06 AM

Umm:

[img]http://homepage.mac.com/jtyzack/.Pictures/screenshots/OOutstyles.jpg[/img]

Then:

[img]http://homepage.mac.com/jtyzack/.Pictures/screenshots/OOutstyles2.jpg[/img]

Then:

[img]http://homepage.mac.com/jtyzack/.Pictures/screenshots/OOutStyles3.jpg[/img]

Also:

[img]http://homepage.mac.com/jtyzack/.Pictures/screenshots/OOut4.jpg[/img]

Agnostus 2006-05-14 12:45 AM

[QUOTE=gryphonent]OmniOutliner still has an awkward and unintuitive handling, especially when it comes to styles. Reading from feedback on Versiontracker and MacUpdate I’m not the only one complaining about these issues... and they have been present since version 3 came out.[/QUOTE]

I fully agree, and I think JKT's screenshots rather show how confusing it is, than make a case FOR the style handling (or, JKT, was it your point to demonstrate how awkward it is and I didn't get it? ;) ). Seriously, I really just cannot force myself to get used to the OO style implementation.

gryphonent 2006-05-14 01:41 AM

Hmm... I just thought the same. I think the main problem is —at least to me — that OO is forcing upon the general user an approach that is totally different from the way other apps are handling styles. And I’m not sure if it is for the better.

bashosfrog 2006-05-15 12:42 PM

I may be missing the entire point here, but I pretty much ignore Styles view for mass changes and just use the Utilities panel. ie. Select "All Level 2 Rows" in the lower window (OO clicks into Styles View), then make changes in Inspector = all Level 2 rows changed as expected.

I don't really "get" Styles View either. Not for everyday use. But I haven't needed to use it in order to set up OO documents of stunning style :-)

JKT 2006-05-15 01:28 PM

That is the styles view, just accessed through a different part of the interface:

[img]http://homepage.mac.com/jtyzack/.Pictures/screenshots/OOutstylesdrawer.jpg[/img]

Gryphonent - I haven't come across any two apps that do use the same interface for styles... ever. In terms of ease of use (in word processors) Pages (pretty good)>=NeoOffice/OpenOffice.org (good)>>>>>>>>>>>>>MS Office (mind-bogglingly awful). However, OmniOutliner is not a word processor, so it is only natural that it uses yet another (different) interface for styles. IMO, it is still very easy to use and the point of my screenshots was to show that it is very simple to do what you requested - see and change the style of all Level 2 rows.

jimphelps 2006-05-18 12:22 PM

I find the styles process baffling also. I have had to select whole documents and unset everything then rebuild my headings et al because I have become lost in "what is applied where and why does this section look like that!"

Agnostus 2006-05-19 09:41 AM

[QUOTE]I find the styles process baffling also. I have had to select whole documents and unset everything then rebuild my headings et al because I have become lost in "what is applied where and why does this section look like that!"[/QUOTE]

That sounds too familiar to me. Now, I am not an experienced OO user, but I find myself often in the situation where it seems the easiest ways to remove all styles and start all over - which is tedious. Omni might want to try to do something for the more casual users here, or: try to get better introductory documentation, as discussed in a thread in the OmniGraffle forums (I think its called "OmniGraffle the definitive guide")

ksg 2006-06-16 06:35 PM

I agree that it's not intuitive
 
[QUOTE=Agnostus]That sounds too familiar to me. Now, I am not an experienced OO user, but I find myself often in the situation where it seems the easiest ways to remove all styles and start all over - which is tedious. Omni might want to try to do something for the more casual users here, or: try to get better introductory documentation, as discussed in a thread in the OmniGraffle forums (I think its called "OmniGraffle the definitive guide")[/QUOTE]

I agree that it is far from intuitive. And as for removing all styles and starting over, it's often not possible to do that: my experience is that if an outline originated as a .rtf file, for example, it seems to inherit some fonts and sizes and weights that you have to change one entry at a time. Tedious hardly begins to describe it. Just Selecting All and setting the font doesn't seem to work.

semi 2006-06-19 02:39 PM

I rather like OmniOutliners handling of styles :eek: but what i really miss is a proper introduction to the style features in the pdf-manual!!! Or perhaps an extra styles-manual... I think the problem is not that its bad - but it's bad-documented.
I found a bit of an introduction here: [URL="http://atpm.com/11.12/atpo.shtml"]Named Styles in OmniOutliner and TAO[/URL]


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