OmniOutliner 4 and iPad (Updated 7/23/10)
 

******** [B]Update 7/23/10[/B] ********

I apologize for the lack of recent OmniOutliner status updates and we greatly appreciate all your patience and enthusiasm for OO. As you may have heard, we just submitted OmniFocus for the iPad to Apple on Wednesday night (yay!). So as far as our iPad plans go, that puts OmniOutliner up next which has actually been in development for a little while already. As far as an estimated release date goes, around the end of summer is our current goal.

So where does this put OmniOutliner 4? Well, as we also mentioned before when we announced our iPad plans, we don't want the iPad app to delay development on OO4. So both OO iPad and OO4 are concurrently being worked on and work has never stopped on OO4. What's taking so long then? The last few months our OO4 developers have been very hard at work getting our outline view and related animations finished. This work is unfortunately taking much longer than anticipated. Due to this, our current best estimate for release is near the end of this year. I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, but I assure you the OO4 team is hard at work and we certainly haven't abandoned or shelved the app.

And that's the current state of all things OmniOutliner. Once again, thanks for your continued support patience!


********


Incase you haven't been following our blog, we [URL="http://blog.omnigroup.com/2010/01/29/ipad-or-bust/"]announced[/URL] two weeks ago that we're planning to bring five apps to the iPad: OmniFocus, OmniGraffle, OmniPlan, OmniGraphSketcher, and OmniOutliner. I'm sure this brings up the question of what happens with OmniOutliner 4 for some of you.

Well, at first we were planning to not changing any plans and starting on the iPad version after OO4 was out, but after our iPad announcement it was clear that there is a big desire for OmniOutliner on the iPad as soon as possible. So in response to that we've modify our plans a bit as detailed in this follow-up [URL="http://blog.omnigroup.com/2010/02/11/ipad-or-bust-two-weeks-later/"]blog post[/URL].

[QUOTE=Ken Case]So we started thinking about how we could get started on OmniOutliner for iPad sooner. We really don’t want to delay OmniOutliner 4, so we instead started thinking about how we could finish OmniOutliner 4 more quickly. We realized that if we scaled back some of the esoteric features which we’d planned for the Pro edition of version 4—cloning and multiple schemas—we could shave three months off its development schedule and get started on OmniOutliner for iPad that much sooner. Now, both of those features are still pretty interesting to us, and we’ve already laid the groundwork for supporting these in the underlying outlining engine—but we think bringing OmniOutliner on iPad is more important overall, so that’s what we’re going to do.

So I’m pleased to say that both OmniOutliner 4 and OmniOutliner for iPad will be coming three months sooner!

Oh, what’s coming in OmniOutliner 4? We’ve rebuilt the engine inside of OmniOutliner, so among other things it will support text zooming, showing and hiding columns, “Smart Match” completion cells, searching across all column types, better link handling (no more unfindable tokens!), and (in the Pro edition) saved smart folders. (Also, say goodbye to the old Aqua drawer!)[/QUOTE]

So, both are still coming and OO4 will be release first, but not with all the features we had planned. The bonus is they're both coming sooner!

I can see the challenge this present the OmniGroup, but from my point of view I'd rather you went the whole hog with OO4 and then developed the iPad version. OO on the Mac has an existing user base, the OO iPad user base is theoretical at the moment.

That said, my world won't fall apart without cloning in OO4 for a few months longer.

[QUOTE=bashosfrog;73152]OO on the Mac has an existing user base, the OO iPad user base is theoretical at the moment. [/QUOTE]

But OO[b]4[/b]'s user base is just as theoretical as the iPad's...and if OmniFocus for the iPhone is any indication, there will be a lot of new customers brought into the fold.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see OO4 tomorrow and OO4 on the iPad (and perhaps with a reader on the iPod/iPhone?) the day they go on sale :-)

Personally, I've been waiting for cloning since OO2 and this news is extremely disappointing. I've looked at other tools that include cloning but have held off because the other features don't work as simply as OO.

I understand the need to prioritise development and I feel that cutting back on features for OO4 will produce a far less compelling upgrade as including cloning and multiple schemas would. What does this mean for upgrade pricing? By dropping these features, does that mean that after waiting years for an upgrade from OO3, we'll have an upgrade to OO4 and then another when cloning and multiple schemas are developed, effectively having to pay twice for features we were expecting to see in OO4?

whpalmer4, I can't agree that the OO4 user base is as theoretical as the iPad user base. OO3 has an existing installed base and if the features are compelling enough plenty (if not most) of those people will upgrade.

Now, I'm still looking forward to seeing OO4 and I'm a big advocate for OmniGroup and own all of the products except OmniGraphSketcher. I'll have to wait for the feature list to see if the Pro version has enough features I need to upgrade to.

We haven't gotten an answer from Omni yet, but I'm not sure there's any reason to conclude that these desired features not being in 4.0 means they won't be in some other version of 4.x. Look at all the features that have gone into post-1.0 releases of OmniFocus, for example. If they come out in 4.x, you won't have to pay any more than if they come out in 4.0. Have you ever looked at the length of the historical release notes for OO3?

As for the debate over whether there are customers for OmniOutliner on the iPad, did you not notice that the reason for the stated change in plans was the large number of requests for OmniOutliner on the iPad? The responses to Ken's first post on the blog had dozens, and I would certainly count it among the things I'll buy on the first day available, along with OmniFocus.

OmniOutliner 4 and iPad
 

[QUOTE=whpalmer4;73211]As for the debate over whether there are customers for OmniOutliner on the iPad, did you not notice that the reason for the stated change in plans was the large number of requests for OmniOutliner on the iPad?[/QUOTE]
This forum is full of requests for cloning/aliasing & multiple schemas/column layouts. The number of requests, and the reasons for them, aren't why OG is trying to ride the iPad wave. Almost all requests for enhancements to OO/OOP are from [I]existing[/I] customers. OG is after [I]new[/I] customers, and those who have been waiting for years for features will just have to wait longer.

I don't blame OG for going after the iPad business - early to the App Store means they can scoop up early adopters and tout an established track record for OG apps. I just think it's a shame that it has to be at the expense of those who had reasonable expectations for certain features in OO/OOP 4. OG was asking for OO/OOP 4 feature requests/suggestions four years ago and even started a thread specifically asking about '[URL="http://forums.omnigroup.com/showthread.php?t=7489"]cloning/aliasing in OO4?[/URL]' two years ago.

Those [I]customers for OmniOutliner on the iPad[/I] could very well have certain expectations of OO/iPad that won't be met by the OO/iPad feature set. If that's the case, well, they can just get in line with the others who are waiting for the [I]next[/I] version.

for some, cloning/aliasing is of no value, and i have no interest in them. but having OO3 or OO4 on an iPad from day one is of GREAT value. so don't assume the existing users are going to be a base for the next upgrade.

I have to admit that reading the OO4 announcement has left me disappointed. I said long ago and I will say it again:

[quote]While I agree that it is far overdue, and you are correct in pointing out that many outliners have went by the wayside, OO4 better be good or it will flop. I have felt for several years now that 003 is ok for outlining but it has it's limits and could be much easier to format. It has always been clunky for me to work with. I started on 002[/quote]

By flop today, I mean existing customers are not going to upgrade like one would expect. Waiting for 4.x to deliver sought after requests reflects the attention given to the OO platform.

OO4 could be so much better but let's face it, OO3 is looong in the tooth. It is no longer my choice for outlining and that is very sad in my geek heart because Omni is my top bookmark under Mac Software in Safari.

I understand the business decision for the iPad to get the software but I don't understand why it has taken this long to deliver the updates dedicated users have waited patiently to appear.

Yes, I have an iPad 3G 64 GB on pre-order so the allure to have it on my iPad is there, it does not overpower the disappointment that OO4 will be lacking with the new release.

An iPad [URL="http://www.omnigroup.com/blog/entry/ipad_or_bust_2_down_3_to_go/"]update[/URL]. This has not changed our OO4 plans.

In OmniOutliner 4 I would like to have multiple outlines available in one file via tabs in the way that Microsoft Excel can have multiple spreadsheets in one file.

I use OmniOutliner to maintain To Do lists for a number of projects. The concatenated lists would be too long to work well within one outline (too much scrolling up and down), but it is inconvenient to have to keep multiple OO files open, one per project. Tabbed outlines would solve this problem.

Timing of OmniOutliner 4
 

Derek - When will OmniOutliner 4 be available? If I purchase OO3 now, will I have to purchase a full version of OO4? Or pay for just an upgrade?

Thanks very much.

R.J.

[QUOTE=RLynch;76443]When will OmniOutliner 4 be available? If I purchase OO3 now, will I have to purchase a full version of OO4? Or pay for just an upgrade?[/QUOTE]

There will certainly be upgrade pricing. We'll release more information when the time comes.

[QUOTE=George Adams;76273]In OmniOutliner 4 I would like to have multiple outlines available in one file via tabs in the way that Microsoft Excel can have multiple spreadsheets in one file.[/QUOTE]

Well ... OO 3 already has this ...

(the 'sections' display in the utility draw ...)

OO4 beta
 

Derek, thrilled to hear OO 4 for desktop and laptop machines are coming been waiting for years. Can I beta test, I was beta for OO 2 and 3. Really hope OO 4 will have feature that check mark removes from view.

Do you have eta for launch?

Please let me know
[email]John@svirsky.co[/email]

It's been three weeks since it was last asked: when is OO4 coming out? And when for the iPad?

[QUOTE=jamesafoster;78917]It's been three weeks since it was last asked: when is OO4 coming out? And when for the iPad?[/QUOTE]

Silence speaks volumes around this place. I'm guessing that OO4 is a low priority dollar wise due to the popularity of OF, OGS, and OG.

This [URL="http://www.omnigroup.com/blog/entry/ipad_or_bust_2_down_3_to_go/"]blog post[/URL] represents the most up to date info we have.

Software takes time. How much time can be hard to predict. Posting guesses takes time away from the projects we're working on, and has a downside if we guess wrong.

I promise you we're working hard to get everything out the door as quickly as we can without compromising quality and that we'll say more when we know more. And please don't assume that the order things ship in indicates priority - when you have five products on two OSes and three hardware platforms, there are a lot of factors in play.

And remember, because the App Store doesn't do pre-orders, they can't collect your money until they have something to ship, and so they've got motivation to deliver :-)

[QUOTE=Brian;79268]This [URL="http://www.omnigroup.com/blog/entry/ipad_or_bust_2_down_3_to_go/"]blog post[/URL] represents the most up to date info we have. [/QUOTE]
Actually, not quite the case:

[url]http://www.omnigroup.com/blog/entry/omnifocus_1.7_for_iphone_and_an_update_on_omnifocus_for_ipad/[/url]

:)

Mark

[QUOTE=Brian;79268]This [URL="http://www.omnigroup.com/blog/entry/ipad_or_bust_2_down_3_to_go/"]blog post[/URL] represents the most up to date info we have.

Software takes time. How much time can be hard to predict. Posting guesses takes time away from the projects we're working on, and has a downside if we guess wrong.

I promise you we're working hard to get everything out the door as quickly as we can without compromising quality and that we'll say more when we know more. And please don't assume that the order things ship in indicates priority - when you have five products on two OSes and three hardware platforms, there are a lot of factors in play.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for responding. I don't expect a response to this but I just wanted to say that if you have a product that butters your bread, you obviously bring that product to the forefront and have it updated fairly often. This has not been the case for OmniOutliner.

I understand the multiple line of products on multiple operating systems. I appreciate you all bringing them to my iPad and iPhone as well. I should not assume, but to say that priorities such as best seller or most profitable are not involved when doing updates does not compute.

OF is a great example of this. I am sure it is a big seller and has a lot of people in that forum that are active. You are in business to make money and this makes the most sense but if Apple released the next big iDevice tomorrow as big or larger than the iPad and it required a rewrite for that OS because of UI and or other changes, OF would get done and OO would get pushed back. It is as simple as that.

That is the frustration us as OO users experience but we understand that is how business works. It can be frustrating at times from both ends. I would settle for a "September-ish" type expectation. On the flip side, a deadline or hard date is a looming weight you don't want to have over you. I just believe after nearly five years most in this forum are getting frustrated. Sorry to have aggravated.

[QUOTE=DerekM;73140]Incase you haven't been following our blog, we [URL="http://blog.omnigroup.com/2010/01/29/ipad-or-bust/"]announced[/URL] two weeks ago that we're planning to bring five apps to the iPad: OmniFocus, OmniGraffle, OmniPlan, OmniGraphSketcher, and OmniOutliner. I'm sure this brings up the question of what happens with OmniOutliner 4 for some of you.

Well, at first we were planning to not changing any plans and starting on the iPad version after OO4 was out, but after our iPad announcement it was clear that there is a big desire for OmniOutliner on the iPad as soon as possible. So in response to that we've modify our plans a bit as detailed in this follow-up [URL="http://blog.omnigroup.com/2010/02/11/ipad-or-bust-two-weeks-later/"]blog post[/URL].



So, both are still coming and OO4 will be release first, but not with all the features we had planned. The bonus is they're both coming sooner![/QUOTE]
Folks, an iPad version is very very good news for OO. In the new mobile age any personal productivity tool that doesn't have a mobile version with built in sync ability is a dead end product. An iPad version of OO keeps it alive.

I don't like OF. The whole tool is counter-intuitive to me, while OO's simplicity equals ease of use. Personal productivity tools are worthless to me unless they follow the Apple philosophy of UI simplicity. What is easy to use gets used.

A question for the Omni wizards, given that all Apple's devices run essentially the same OS now, does an iPad version imply an iPhone version? (I ask hopefully...!)

I use OO extensively at home, but use other iPhone apps for mobile to-do/shopping lists. Frustrating.

Fed Up
 

I'm sorry guys, but I am completely fed up with this. Many of us have been using OO for years and hyping the product to all our friends. Now we are waiting MONTHS for OO 4 and the iPad version only hearing it will be here "soon." When we ask nicely, you ignore us. Once in a while you come here and say "soon" again...

[U]We deserve better[/U].

I understand the demands trying to get multiple products out on multiple platforms. I truly do. I also understand the problems with giving timeframes and having people disappointed when you don't meet them. We are NOT asking for exact times, or even close estimates. I think everyone here would be happy if you simply told us "Sometime in the next month or two" or "by the end of the year" or "sometime next year."

The truth is, when I started using OO years ago, it was the best product out by far. You had no real competition for a simple, elegant, easy to use, outlining tool that [U]just worked[/U]. Now, you do have competition. What is keeping me, and I assume many of us, here is [U]loyalty[/U] and a desire not to re-learn another tool.

Unfortunately, your silence and unwillingness to provide even the most basic time estimates speaks volumes about your commitment to this product. As others have pointed out, it is abundantly clear that you have put OO on the back burner for what I presume are more profitable products. That's fine. I understand. This is business, and you have to make a profit. Believe me, we [U]want[/U] you to make a profit.

While many of us feel some kind of loyalty to OO, that loyalty only goes so far. Without changes, you will lose us. This isn't a threat. I realize that we, individually, or even as a group, are not very profitable for you. This is just a wakeup call. If we [U]are[/U] important to your business, make some changes, or we're gone.

/rant off

Go read Ken's posts and comments on the Omni blog ([url]http://blog.omnigroup.com[/url] and also via links posted in this thread by Brian and DerekM). You might have to read about products other than just OmniOutliner to figure out the whole picture of what is happening when, but it is clear to me that work continues apace on the projects you ask about here, and they have not been abandoned. Given the grief encountered from not getting OmniFocus for iPad submitted to the App Store for approval by the hoped-for June 30 date, however, I can't see why he would want to be much more specific than he already has been.

Loyalty is a misguided concept here, IMO. If you find a better tool that will recoup the costs of switching in a reasonable time frame and make you more productive or your work more enjoyable, you should switch! You can always switch back if OO4 makes that worthwhile.

[QUOTE=whpalmer4;79842]Go read Ken's posts and comments on the Omni blog ([url]http://blog.omnigroup.com[/url] and also via links posted in this thread by Brian and DerekM). You might have to read about products other than just OmniOutliner to figure out the whole picture of what is happening when, but it is clear to me that work continues apace on the projects you ask about here, and they have not been abandoned. Given the grief encountered from not getting OmniFocus for iPad submitted to the App Store for approval by the hoped-for June 30 date, however, I can't see why he would want to be much more specific than he already has been.

Loyalty is a misguided concept here, IMO. If you find a better tool that will recoup the costs of switching in a reasonable time frame and make you more productive or your work more enjoyable, you should switch! You can always switch back if OO4 makes that worthwhile.[/QUOTE]

You're right, loyalty is misguided. I generally value smaller companies because I feel they are more responsive to their customers. Previously Omni has been good to me, so I was hesitant to leave. Plus, if the updates are coming "soon" I would rather not learn a new product.

The point is, this cloak of silence leads me to believe that my thoughts about the company were, as you said, misguided.

There's no cloak of silence at work here - we have a lot of projects on our plate, we're working on getting everything done quickly without sacrificing quality, and we don't yet know how long it'll take to get the work done.

I understand your frustration, and I really do sympathize. While having us post guesses might feel better in the short term, if those guesses turn out to be inaccurate, it causes even more frustration and distraction.

In the meantime, all we can do is thank everyone for their patience, apologize for it being necessary, and do the work that everyone keeps telling us they need us to be working on. :-)

Thank you for the response, Brian.

It seems clear that the only reasons for complete silence rather than some basic guess (i.e., sometime in the next YEAR) after all the waiting are (1) the projects are nowhere near completion or (2) have been abandoned or at least indefinitely delayed. After all, Omni has provided exact DATE estimates for other projects (although I acknowledge that backfired when the company did not meet the deadline). We are asking for an estimate that is MUCH less definite than you have given for other products.

I wish you would go ahead and tell us the truth, but at least we can make that assumption on our own and start looking elsewhere.

[QUOTE=blackacre;79883]Thank you for the response, Brian.

It seems clear that the only reasons for complete silence rather than some basic guess (i.e., sometime in the next YEAR) after all the waiting are (1) the projects are nowhere near completion or (2) have been abandoned or at least indefinitely delayed. After all, Omni has provided exact DATE estimates for other projects (although I acknowledge that backfired when the company did not meet the deadline). We are asking for an estimate that is MUCH less definite than you have given for other products.

I wish you would go ahead and tell us the truth, but at least we can make that assumption on our own and start looking elsewhere.[/QUOTE]

If you read the blog posts, you'll see that they have given you such estimates.

From [URL="http://www.omnigroup.com/blog/entry/ipad_or_bust_2_down_3_to_go/"]iPad or Bust: 2 down, 3 to go![/URL]
[INDENT]Meanwhile, I'm sure many of you are wondering about the other three apps: OmniFocus, OmniOutliner, and OmniPlan. We're currently working on OmniFocus and OmniOutliner in parallel. OmniFocus has a bit of a head start, thanks to the work we'd already done in bringing it to iPhone, so we anticipate its iPad app will be ready in June. OmniOutliner is a little further out, and our current projection is that it will ship this summer. Finally, after we've shipped those four apps, we'll round out the set with OmniPlan for iPad which we're currently anticipating will ship sometime this fall.[/INDENT]
Okay, so there's the prediction for OmniOutliner for the iPad.

For OmniOutliner 4, from [URL="http://www.omnigroup.com/blog/entry/iPad_or_Bust/"]iPad or Bust![/URL]:
[INDENT]Similarly, the OmniOutliner team is also heavily into a major development cycle—one which affects not only the next major release of OmniOutliner, version 4, but also the upcoming major releases of both OmniFocus and OmniPlan—so that team is booked up for at least the next several months. But while it won't be on iPad on day one, OmniOutliner is where all of our projects start and we think it will be a great fit for iPad, so we plan to adapt it as soon as possible.
[/INDENT]
From [URL="http://www.omnigroup.com/blog/entry/iPad_or_Bust_two_weeks_later/"]iPad or Bust: two weeks later[/URL]:
[INDENT]Now, I mentioned two weeks ago that we were generally prioritizing iPad work over some of our Mac projects, but that some Mac projects—specifically, OmniOutliner 4 and OmniPlan 2—would take precedence over their iPad counterparts. In response to that plan, I received a lot of feedback that folks would like to see OmniOutliner for iPad sooner rather than later.

So we started thinking about how we could get started on OmniOutliner for iPad sooner. We really don't want to delay OmniOutliner 4, so we instead started thinking about how we could finish OmniOutliner 4 more quickly. We realized that if we scaled back some of the esoteric features which we'd planned for the Pro edition of version 4—cloning and multiple schemas—we could shave three months off its development schedule and get started on OmniOutliner for iPad that much sooner. Now, both of those features are still pretty interesting to us, and we've already laid the groundwork for supporting these in the underlying outlining engine—but we think bringing OmniOutliner on iPad is more important overall, so that's what we're going to do.

So I'm pleased to say that both OmniOutliner 4 and OmniOutliner for iPad will be coming three months sooner![/INDENT]

I appreciate your enthusiasm but if you read those post, you can't come up with a 6 moon range of dates. What you get is more of nothing.

The months sooner than what? See my point?

It was also a big hit to a lot of us when key features were announced to be left out for the dot-oh version that should be present. In all fairness it has been five years and you can see the frustration continue to increase. I am already evaluating other solutions to OO. It's sad but it had to happen at some point.




[QUOTE=whpalmer4;79888]If you read the blog posts, you'll see that they have given you such estimates.

From [URL="http://www.omnigroup.com/blog/entry/ipad_or_bust_2_down_3_to_go/"]iPad or Bust: 2 down, 3 to go![/URL]
[INDENT]Meanwhile, I'm sure many of you are wondering about the other three apps: OmniFocus, OmniOutliner, and OmniPlan. We're currently working on OmniFocus and OmniOutliner in parallel. OmniFocus has a bit of a head start, thanks to the work we'd already done in bringing it to iPhone, so we anticipate its iPad app will be ready in June. OmniOutliner is a little further out, and our current projection is that it will ship this summer. Finally, after we've shipped those four apps, we'll round out the set with OmniPlan for iPad which we're currently anticipating will ship sometime this fall.[/INDENT]
Okay, so there's the prediction for OmniOutliner for the iPad.

For OmniOutliner 4, from [URL="http://www.omnigroup.com/blog/entry/iPad_or_Bust/"]iPad or Bust![/URL]:
[INDENT]Similarly, the OmniOutliner team is also heavily into a major development cycle—one which affects not only the next major release of OmniOutliner, version 4, but also the upcoming major releases of both OmniFocus and OmniPlan—so that team is booked up for at least the next several months. But while it won't be on iPad on day one, OmniOutliner is where all of our projects start and we think it will be a great fit for iPad, so we plan to adapt it as soon as possible.
[/INDENT]
From [URL="http://www.omnigroup.com/blog/entry/iPad_or_Bust_two_weeks_later/"]iPad or Bust: two weeks later[/URL]:
[INDENT]Now, I mentioned two weeks ago that we were generally prioritizing iPad work over some of our Mac projects, but that some Mac projects—specifically, OmniOutliner 4 and OmniPlan 2—would take precedence over their iPad counterparts. In response to that plan, I received a lot of feedback that folks would like to see OmniOutliner for iPad sooner rather than later.

So we started thinking about how we could get started on OmniOutliner for iPad sooner. We really don't want to delay OmniOutliner 4, so we instead started thinking about how we could finish OmniOutliner 4 more quickly. We realized that if we scaled back some of the esoteric features which we'd planned for the Pro edition of version 4—cloning and multiple schemas—we could shave three months off its development schedule and get started on OmniOutliner for iPad that much sooner. Now, both of those features are still pretty interesting to us, and we've already laid the groundwork for supporting these in the underlying outlining engine—but we think bringing OmniOutliner on iPad is more important overall, so that's what we're going to do.

So I'm pleased to say that both OmniOutliner 4 and OmniOutliner for iPad will be coming three months sooner![/INDENT][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=dude;79901]I appreciate your enthusiasm but if you read those post, you can't come up with a 6 moon range of dates. What you get is more of nothing.
[/quote]

What part of "OmniOutliner for iPad this summer" didn't you read?

What part of features being pushed back did you miss?

[QUOTE=dude;79903]What part of features being pushed back did you miss?[/QUOTE]
Didn't miss it, but it was not relevant to the question I was answering. Blackacre complained that no timeframe was given. I pointed out that a timeframe [b]was[/b] given. Then you complained that no timeframe was given. I pointed out the very words where it was. If you want to throw your toys out of the pram because your favorite feature isn't at the top of everyone else's wish list, be my guest, but how about we drop the factually incorrect complaints about how they aren't giving us any idea when we might see these releases? It just reinforces their view that there is little or no upside for them in sharing such information.

whpalmer4, you are correct. They gave a time frame of summer. I missed your point about summer.

I don't intentionally throw my toys nor act like a two year old. You will find I am disappointed with a five year cycle and pushed back features that have plagued OO.

I think that Ken posting it up on his blog may not be read by all on the forum because we get caught up in thinking this is the latest information.

The feature set I was referring to were big enough to cause a fairly large response on here which Ken promptly addressed. It was not like it was *my* favorite but it appeared to be several. So this leads me to look at the OO update as a 3.9.xx update rather than an 004.0 update because the major features a large group of users apparently are requesting will be pushed back months after the 4.0 release. This is the problem I believe most of us are frustrated with.



[QUOTE=whpalmer4;79904]Didn't miss it, but it was not relevant to the question I was answering. Blackacre complained that no timeframe was given. I pointed out that a timeframe [b]was[/b] given. Then you complained that no timeframe was given. I pointed out the very words where it was. If you want to throw your toys out of the pram because your favorite feature isn't at the top of everyone else's wish list, be my guest, but how about we drop the factually incorrect complaints about how they aren't giving us any idea when we might see these releases? It just reinforces their view that there is little or no upside for them in sharing such information.

The last time I saw such histrionics was when I told my 7-year-old boy that we weren't going to buy him anything from the ice cream truck because he'd already had a milkshake with his dinner :-)[/QUOTE]

Whpalmer: In fairness, I missed the reference about OO for ipad this summer. However, that information is old and we could use an update. Furthermore, after being asked countless times on these forums and flat out ignoring the questions or answering that "we don't yet know how long it'll take to get the work done" it doesn't inspire confidence. I'll keep my eyes open a little longer but it would be REALLY nice if Brian would confirm that they really are still looking at "sometime this summer" as their post in April said. hint, hint?


Point remains: We are frustrated both by the huge delays and the lack of communication. Better communication is what I thought separated companies like Omni from behemoths like Microsoft.

[QUOTE=blackacre;79921]Point remains: We are frustrated both by the huge delays and the lack of communication. Better communication is what I thought separated companies like Omni from behemoths like Microsoft.[/QUOTE]
Speaking as one who has worked as a developer at a very small company and a very large company, I think Omni is doing you a favor. The big company's customers demand road maps, detailed schedules, etc. and to a large degree, the big company is forced to play along and ship when they said they would, whether or not they should. It leads to a real stifling effect on development, because all the managers want only minimal changes made to keep the risks small, even if the better long-term thing to do is to gut something and re-engineer it. The small, agile company has the flexibility to ship the bits when they are ready because there are no giant customers that have signed contracts with penalties for missing ship dates and so on. Obviously, it isn't good to stretch the schedule too much without managing customer expectations accordingly, but neither should you push Omni too hard to give up one of their prime advantages. My experiences with software that was shipped on a date predicted months in advance haven't been happy ones, for the most part.

I agree it's tough being a kid waiting for Christmas morning when the adults won't even tell you what month it is, but try to let the elves build the best possible toys for you :-)

[QUOTE=blackacre;79921]Furthermore, after being asked countless times on these forums and flat out ignoring the questions or answering that "we don't yet know how long it'll take to get the work done" it doesn't inspire confidence.
[/QUOTE]

Again, I'm sympathetic to your frustration, but answering questions that have already been answered consumes time that we could use to work on the products. That delays the very thing you're asking for.

[QUOTE=blackacre;79921]I'll keep my eyes open a little longer but it would be REALLY nice if Brian would confirm that they really are still looking at "sometime this summer" as their post in April said. hint, hint?
[/QUOTE]

We're going to do our absolute best to do so, but that's not a guarantee that we'll succeed.

[QUOTE=blackacre;79921]Better communication is what I thought separated companies like Omni from behemoths like Microsoft.[/QUOTE]

I think we've communicated honestly and openly. I'm sorry that the answer we can give - "we don't know yet" - isn't what you want.

[QUOTE=whpalmer4;79904]The last time I saw such histrionics was when I told my 7-year-old boy that we weren't going to buy him anything from the ice cream truck because he'd already had a milkshake with his dinner :-)[/QUOTE]

This is getting really close to an ad hominem - please, let's not go there, even with a smiley...

[QUOTE=Brian;80054]This is getting really close to an ad hominem - please, let's not go there, even with a smiley...[/QUOTE]
Not intended as anything more than a "we're all getting a little bent out of shape here" but point taken and post edited.

blackacre...what information do you think it takes for Omni to properly estimate a release date?

Omni Outliner for IPAD
 

It seems there's a lot of frustration here on this thread with people waiting in anticipation.

I just wanted to give a shout out of encouragement to the developers for both Omnioutliner for IPAD and the new Mac version.

Whenever it is released, I know they will be awesome, and I'll be first in line to purchase copies when they go on sale!

I've updated the original post with the current status of OmniOutliner:


I apologize for the lack of recent OmniOutliner status updates and we greatly appreciate all your patience and enthusiasm for OO. As you may have heard, we just submitted OmniFocus for the iPad to Apple on Wednesday night (yay!). So as far as our iPad plans go, that puts OmniOutliner up next which has actually been in development for a little while already. As far as an estimated release date goes, around the end of summer is our current goal.

So where does this put OmniOutliner 4? Well, as we also mentioned before when we announced our iPad plans, we don't want the iPad app to delay development on OO4. So both OO iPad and OO4 are concurrently being worked on and work has never stopped on OO4. What's taking so long then? The last few months our OO4 developers have been very hard at work getting our outline view and related animations finished. This work is unfortunately taking much longer than anticipated. Due to this, our current best estimate for release is near the end of this year. I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, but I assure you the OO4 team is hard at work and we certainly haven't abandoned or shelved the app.

And that's the current state of all things OmniOutliner. Once again, thanks for your continued support patience!

I'm looking forward to OO for iPad. I have OO on my Mac but since I don't take it to work with me (have a PC at work) I don't get much of a chance to use OO. I pretty much live on my iPad at work now so OO for iPad will make it possible for me to utilize it a LOT more.

As for OO4 - can't wait for the update, but will be happy to get the iPad version first.

Thanks for the update.

It has been quite frustrating having my iPad with me, but not having a copy of OmniOutliner to use on it — much more so than not having a copy of OmniPlan on it, or not having the hoped-for OO4 features on my desktop. Lately I've been lucky enough to be an OmniFocus for iPad alpha tester, and used it as an outlining stopgap, but the OO for iPad release is eagerly awaited by yours truly! Those nifty new OO4 features — I've never had them in any form, so their absence is more easily tolerated than the absence of a tool I use nearly every day from what is becoming my preferred work environment for many projects. I do recognize that a strong argument could be made that OO4 first has its merits as well, in that it would provide functionality we've never had in any environment. For me, the balance tips toward the iPad app, because I don't do many of the projects where cloning and so on would be a big help. So, I'm happy about the current ordering, and like everyone else, would like it all yesterday :-)

[QUOTE=atreinke;80770]I have OO on my Mac but since I don't take it to work with me (have a PC at work) I don't get much of a chance to use OO. [/QUOTE]

Have you considered running OO on your Mac remotely with VNC? Doesn't do me much good, as I'm usually out of WiFi range with my iPad, but presumably your PC at work has good connectivity.

[QUOTE=whpalmer4;80840]Have you considered running OO on your Mac remotely with VNC? Doesn't do me much good, as I'm usually out of WiFi range with my iPad, but presumably your PC at work has good connectivity.[/QUOTE]

Actually I have thought about doing just that, before the iPad came out. I have a MacBookPro at home so I was actually thinking about getting a MacMini to run. I had stopped using OmniFocus for awhile and was using Daylite and Daylite Touch instead. I was going to run the mini as a server for Daylite, and since I was going to do that I thought about running a VNC. (I have never done it before but do like to play around and try to get things working) I gave up on Daylite though and came back to OF, glad I did. (so - running the OF iPad alpha - I'm jealous!)

I like OO but as I said, I don't use it much. I think that will change when the iPad version comes out though. I don't want to use my personal MBP at work but am just fine with the iPad there.

Couldn't you just please release a "lite" version of the app sooner?

What I'd need:
- type, enter, type, enter, type, enter - adding new lines to the given level, for making notes

(I tried to implement this with HTML5, it is deliberately impossible with the bad handling of focus(), and not having any other way to keep the keyboard on the screen)

- Displaying checkboxes by default

- Indenting with one tap, or maybe a swipe

That's all i would need on the first time. OK, formatting on a level basis would be good, maybe pasting graphics, but if that's too advanced, I don't need it. I don't need columns in the first version either.

Oh, and I'd like to export and email these to TXT and PDF. That's all.

Again, I tried to write it, but I'm reluctant to upgrade my machine to snow leo and learn objective c just because of that, and the Mobile Safari API has some limitations.

Still, most of the TODO apps (all of which I've tried) cannot understand what does it make when you just hit enters and type. That's a crucial thing.

Also a text editor is not enough; I would like to have an outliner on that iPad! :)

I don't want to wait until christmas for such an app. It should have been installed by default :)

Thanks for the update...
 

I use OmniOutliner daily for professional, personal, and ecclesiastical idea organization and tracking. It is an indispensable tool that I am anxiously awaiting for the iPad. I love the product's flexibility, ease of use, and the typical Omni quality, elegance, and design. You guys make great software.

My one request is that OmniOutliner on the iPad be able to open and save files to cloud drives, like DropBox or MobileMe iDisk.

As an example, I much prefer Pages, Keynote, and Numbers on the iPad to QuickOffice and Documents to Go, but the fact that I can open a file on my iPad straight from my DropBox in QuickOffice/DTG, edit it, and then save that file back to the cloud drive without any synchronization or extra steps (i.e., it's the same file!!) is critical to my workflow. Unfortunately the file management through iTunes really, really cripples iWork on the iPad, despite being superior (in my opinion) products and so I'm using them less and less, waiting for Apple to incorporate those features.

Please, please, please let OmniOutliner for iPad open/save native OmniOutliner files straight to a cloud drive! The iPad is perfect for making edits and opening files on the go. And I can't wait (crossing fingers) for OmniOutliner on my Mac and the iPad!

Zooming
 

You are finally embracing zooming (for us old geezers), so you have convinced me to migrate from NoteTaker back to OmniOutliner. Yeah, it's that important. I know it wasn't easy, so thanks much!!

Visually not what I used to be...

Jeffery

@benmackay: if you need the advantages of Pages over the it her apps (like including images), you might give the iWork beta webpage a try (which needs you to be a MobileMe member hence payable) it is less straight forward than DropBox for example but will allow editing of files in native format from within Pages/iPad and Mac (via Safari).

Release End of Summer?
 

Hey Guys,

this morning, it was about 9 °C (about 48 °F) here in Switzerland. That feels pretty much like end of summer. So could you please release OmniOutliner for iPad just now?

OK, maybe my feeling a little chilly this morning is not that big an impact on your release schedules... and maybe even the official end of summer on September, 23rd is not that important to you. I understand that and I do appreciate your delivering priority is quality not time.

I am quite happy with my OmniFocus on the iPad (and OmniGraffle and OmniGraphSketcher), and I've been looking forward to OmniOutliner there for quite some time. Like a lot of people, I stopped carrying around my MacBook all the time and replaced it with my iPad. That works just great. And to make it even greater, I need an outliner. Currently, I'm using some product, that lets me make some outlines. And it works. But that's just it. No great user experience.

Even if I have not seen the iPad version of OmniOutliner or heard anything about it, my experience tells me that OmniOutliner for iPad will be great (for me).

As Scott Adams just recently wrote at the end of a post: I can't remember if I had a point.

Kind regards from Switzerland
Boris

P.S.: I'd appreciate any update on progress of the development .

[QUOTE=boris.baesler;84742]

Kind regards from Switzerland
Boris

P.S.: I'd appreciate any update on progress of the development .[/QUOTE]

See the first post it was updated July 23rd or read below.

[quote]So where does this put OmniOutliner 4? Well, as we also mentioned before when we announced our iPad plans, we don't want the iPad app to delay development on OO4. So both OO iPad and OO4 are concurrently being worked on and work has never stopped on OO4. What's taking so long then? The last few months our OO4 developers have been very hard at work getting our outline view and related animations finished. This work is unfortunately taking much longer than anticipated.[b] Due to this, our current best estimate for release is near the end of this year.[/b] I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, but I assure you the OO4 team is hard at work and we certainly haven't abandoned or shelved the app.[/quote]

To me, it sounds like OO4 (for Mac) is delayed until the end of the year, but nothing was really said one way or another about the implications for the schedule of the iPad app...

[QUOTE=whpalmer4;84780]To me, it sounds like OO4 (for Mac) is delayed until the end of the year, but nothing was really said one way or another about the implications for the schedule of the iPad app...[/QUOTE]

That's just the way, I understood it. And that was actually the reason for me asking for any update...

UPDATE: Actually, there is an end-of-summer release goal in just that post by Derek. But I wanted to know, if this goal is still on or not.

ipad first
 

On our computers we have tools to use, regardless of the version. On the eye pad we have nothing. I want all my OO docs on my iPAD, so please, [B]now[/B] would be good.

[QUOTE=boris.baesler;84847]

UPDATE: Actually, there is an end-of-summer release goal in just that post by Derek. But I wanted to know, if this goal is still on or not.[/QUOTE]

So do we all :)

But the end of summer goal statement is in the original post, from months ago, not in the updated portion of the post. This might be less than clear, especially if you hadn't seen or don't remember the original post. Also less than crystal clear is whether the outline view and animation work mentioned as taking much longer than anticipated is work for the iPad, Mac, or both. If it is for the iPad and the Mac, then the iPad schedule may be impacted more substantially than if it is code only needed for OO4 for Mac.

Email to [email]omnioutliner@omnigroup.com[/email] might spur a clarification — at least you will know that someone at Omni read your message in a timely fashion, which isn't the case with posting to the forum.

[QUOTE=whpalmer4;85037]So do we all :)
[/QUOTE]

+1 here!
I'm not even bringing my iPad with me at work, since its main purpose would be void without OO.

I just registered here to say: iPad, iPad, iPad.

Stuff the desktop app: it already does pretty much everything, which is infinitely more than the iPad app, because that doesn't exist yet :(

iPad, iPad, iPad.

Carbon Fin Outliner just isn't doing it for me, purely because there's no desktop version.

I'll be officially back from vacation tomorrow, after which I'll review the current state of OmniOutliner for iPad and post an [URL="http://www.omnigroup.com/blog/entry/iPad_or_Bust/"]iPad or Bust![/URL] update on our blog. (3 down, 2 to go!)

[QUOTE=Ken Case;85057]I'll be officially back from vacation tomorrow, after which I'll review the current state of OmniOutliner for iPad and post an [URL="http://www.omnigroup.com/blog/entry/iPad_or_Bust/"]iPad or Bust![/URL] update on our blog. (3 down, 2 to go!)[/QUOTE]

Dude, Ken, I'm jonesing for news about OmniOutliner for iPad.
When the iPhone came out, I said, "awesome, but make it bigger, do away with the phone contract and put OmniOutliner on it and I'm sold."
I'm certain I will use the iPad app far more than the desktop version.

[QUOTE=drdroad;85035]On our computers we have tools to use, regardless of the version. On the eye pad we have nothing. I want all my OO docs on my iPAD, so please, [B]now[/B] would be good.[/QUOTE]
+1

Just posting to keep this thread hot (and increase the total number of commenters).

[QUOTE=menicosia;85406]+1

Just posting to keep this thread hot (and increase the total number of commenters).[/QUOTE]

Which accomplishes exactly nothing, and might even be deleted. Forum rule #2:[indent]
No spam. This includes content-free posts. ("Bump" posts, "First!" posts, etc.)
[/indent]
Forum rules can be found at [url]http://forums.omnigroup.com/showthread.php?t=16307[/url]

If you want Omni to do something, like add a feature, or answer a question, they actively encourage feedback. Use Help->Send Feedback to send it to them, or they may not see it.

i have the desktop app. i use a macbook pro, and have no wishes or desire to buy or use an iPad. that's my choice, and i'm very happy for people who do choose to use an iPad. what i am NOT doing is posting all over the place telling developers not to bother with the iPad because i use the desktop version. i'm sure that the developer team at Omni are sensible enough to ignore these kind of selfish imprecations.

There are features that users of the desktop application have been waiting for, and promised, [I]for years[/I] but some of you seem to think it should be dropped, because apple brings out a shiny new executive toy.

of course an iPad version is desirable for its users, but why the hell should it be at the expense of the desktop version.

[QUOTE=kened;85428]

There are features that users of the desktop application have been waiting for, and promised, [I]for years[/I] but some of you seem to think it should be dropped, because apple brings out a shiny new executive toy.
[/quote]
Really? What features have been promised? Plenty of "we'd like to" but they seem to avoid making promises.

I'm not sure why you think Omni has an obligation to ship OO4 first, just because OO predates the iPad. This is a business. If business considerations mean that OO for iPad should ship first, that's what they should do. Likewise, if business considerations mean that OO4 should ship first, that's what they should do. Who has been waiting longer should only be a factor insofar as it affects the business case.
[quote]
of course an iPad version is desirable for its users, but why the hell should it be at the expense of the desktop version.[/QUOTE]
Because they have more things they want to do than resources with which to do them, they have to make hard choices about what to do, and when. No matter what they choose, there will always be unhappy customers who think they are getting the short end of the stick. Those of us who want [b]both[/b] OO for iPad and OO4, for example, seem likely to encounter some frustration as scheduling tradeoffs are made.

Updates?
 

So... The original "iPad or Bust" blog post indicated that plans were to have the iPad version of OmniOutliner out during Summer, 2010. Summer is officially over one week from today.

Would someone at Omni be so kind as to provide an update? I'm sure that the dates have been pushed back, but I would like to know the general neighborhood in which my expectations might find a home.

Thanks.

well, i might have known that if i stuck my head above the parapet someone would take a pot shot at it.[QUOTE]Really? What features have been promised? Plenty of "we'd like to" but they seem to avoid making promises.
[/QUOTE]
well, text zooming for one. for years.

[QUOTE]I'm not sure why you think Omni has an obligation to ship OO4 first, just because OO predates the iPad. This is a business. If business considerations mean that OO for iPad should ship first, that's what they should do. Likewise, if business considerations mean that OO4 should ship first, that's what they should do. Who has been waiting longer should only be a factor insofar as it affects the business case.[/QUOTE]

i don't think Omni has any obligation to ship anything first. (did you actually read what i wrote before quoting it?)

what i object to is other users posting to this forum and telling omni which product they should be working on first. it was precisely my point. The company has already made a public commitment to the development of an upgraded desktop application. I object to posters here trying to undermine that.

[QUOTE=costmo;85576]Would someone at Omni be so kind as to provide an update? I'm sure that the dates have been pushed back, but I would like to know the general neighborhood in which my expectations might find a home.
[/QUOTE]

See the Omni blog for an update that Ken posted tonight.

[QUOTE=curt.clifton;85737]See the Omni blog for an update that Ken posted tonight.[/QUOTE]

Late Q4 2010....aarrrrggggh. That pretty much means New Year's Day 2011.

If the iPad wasn't so great, I'd be kicking myself for not buying an Air instead.

Quick question. It was not totally clear for me if by Late Q4, we will have as well OO version 4. Or is it only the iPad refresh? I've been waiting for ever for OO 4. Thanks for the clarification.

I can't believe it: DEVONThink actually got their product into the iTunes store before OmniGroup got OmniOutliner in.

The only rationalization for this is that DEVON did it quickly—and in fact, they did omit a BUNCH of very important features—whereas OmniGroup is planning to "do it right." Hope so.

I'm still going nuts waiting for OO to come to the iPad.

I couldn't care less about OO4. I just want OO on my iPad. And replication would be nice. (That's something else that DEVONThink has that NO ONE else has. We haven't had decent replication—true cloning on an OOP level so that every clone is merely a pointer—since InfoSelect.)

Go, team Omni! You can do it!

[QUOTE=santra;88178]I can't believe it: DEVONThink actually got their product into the iTunes store before OmniGroup got OmniOutliner in.

The only rationalization for this is that DEVON did it quickly—and in fact, they did omit a BUNCH of very important features—whereas OmniGroup is planning to "do it right." Hope so.

I'm still going nuts waiting for OO to come to the iPad.

I couldn't care less about OO4. I just want OO on my iPad. [/QUOTE]

I agree 100%. The current features set of OO is more than adequate for me. But not having it on the iPad is getting every day more difficult to bear... especially since there's virtually no competition.

Too little, too late...
 

I recently wrote:

[QUOTE=santra;88178]I'm still going nuts waiting for OO to come to the iPad. I couldn't care less about OO4. I just want OO on my iPad.[/QUOTE]

As of last Friday, I have officially given up: I went out and bought the new MacBook Air, installed OmniOutliner on it, and put my work outline in Dropbox.

Sorry, Ken, but it's been over six months since my original post in the Forums Feedback forum about this on 2010-03-10, 12:54 PM. That's too long a wait.

I'll of course get OO4 when it comes out; it will probably be great. But I won't be using it on my iPad. That dream is just taking too long to come true. Have to move on.

[QUOTE=santra;88395]Sorry, Ken, but it's been over six months since my original post in the Forums Feedback forum about this on 2010-03-10, 12:54 PM. That's too long a wait.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding, and there's certainly no need for you to apologize! I hope you've seen my latest [URL="http://www.omnigroup.com/blog/entry/ipad_or_bust_3_down_2_to_go/"]iPad or Bust status update[/URL]?

As I said in that update, we've finished the basic work of being able to read and view and edit and save outlines (months ago, now)—but creating a great touch-based interface for text outlines is not an easy problem and we're still working through plenty of design issues (the latest being how best to simplify local hierarchical styles).

Some of these design issues aren't necessarily new to the iPad—the styles interface was certainly already quite confusing in OmniOutliner 3 for Mac! But we didn't want to carry over confusing concepts just because they were on the Mac; we think now is the best time for us to really rethink some of these problematic concepts, and the solutions we're finding are also helping us improve the upcoming Mac app.

I understand your anticipation: I've been wishing for an iPad version of OmniOutliner since long before I actually got my hands on an iPad. But it's our biggest design challenge to date, and I think it's important for us to take the time to get it right.

So as I've said in each of my [URL="http://www.omnigroup.com/blog/entry/iPad_or_Bust"]iPad or Bust![/URL] posts, please don't rely on things happening exactly according to any particular snapshot of our plans. The reason we've shared our plans is not to suggest that anyone wait for any particular date; it's so that you'll have some insight into what we're doing and why, making it possible for you to decide whether we're going in a direction you're interested in.

In the meantime, enjoy OmniOutliner on your new MacBook Air!

[QUOTE=Ken Case;88397]In the meantime, enjoy OmniOutliner on your new MacBook Air![/QUOTE]

Thanks. Despite its minor flaws, I believe the "Ultimate" version is the best laptop Apple has ever produced. It's a bit like a Porsche—really fast, though somewhat fragile. But the combination of enormous speed, beautiful screen, and perfect form factor make it really the "Ultimate." A pure joy to work on at all times (except in the dark, on account of the non-backlit keys, and lack of ambient light sensor for auto-screen brightness adjustment).

It is disappointing to hear that OO4 won't make it out the door before the end of the year.*However, I am glad that Omni is communicating this to us. I have for one been fairly vocal on the release of OO4 but hearing regular updates helps ease the pain.

[QUOTE=dude;89213]It is disappointing to hear that OO4 won't make it out the door before the end of the year.*However, I am glad that Omni is communicating this to us. I have for one been fairly vocal on the release of OO4 but hearing regular updates helps ease the pain.[/QUOTE]

I agree, though another delay is a bit disappointing. I was waiting for OO for iPad this summer, as originally planned.
I don't mind having to wait for OO 4, version 3 is still largely adequate IMO. The iPad, however, really needs a good outliner, and for the time being it has none.
I'm waiting for Ken's promised new blog post, and keeping my finger crossed.

iOS 4.2 is out! OO for iPad soon?
 

[quote]Since OmniOutliner for iPad will require iOS 4.2, it won't be out until sometime after that ships. (Though hopefully not long after!)[/quote]

OK, Apple satisfied the first part there, getting iOS 4.2 out. Any chance this means some good news for us iPad owners in the really near future?

I want OO for my iPad very, very much. I shelled out for OmniGraffle and OmniFocus right away, so I promise to support Omni's bottom line again ASAP once it ships!
:-)

[QUOTE=SunByrne;89320]OK, Apple satisfied the first part there, getting iOS 4.2 out. Any chance this means some good news for us iPad owners in the really near future?
[/QUOTE]

I think you missed the Twitter announcement: it seems that OO for iPad won't make it for the end of the year...

I realise in posting these thoughts I'm really sticking my head over the parapet..

I feel strangely at odds with the idea of complaining over and over for months because something I really want cannot be yet be had. Especially when that something is not life saving or of similar proportions. What is wrong with us these days, I wonder...?

On a slightly different note and perhaps not entirely relevant to this topic; I have to say that every time any of my software or any of my apps for iPhone or iPad get free updates - that aren't bug fixes but actual new features - it always feels like a real gift to me. Maybe it's because I'm old enough to remember the 'old days', when you bought something, you got THAT OBJECT that you bought and didn't expect to get free, improved versions of said objects for the rest of your life... Isn't it amazing and wonderful that we get free stuff now and then, from these hard working folk?

There is something odd in the computer-related world that invites us to insist on high speed everything in our lives... Stuff, stuff, stuff...When actually, all we really need as human beings is food, shelter, warmth, companionship... and perhaps, for some of us at least, a sense of the transpersonal dimension as well. But what's happening here, to my mind, is just self perpetuated, unnecessary suffering...

Just look at the months of foot-stomping in this thread...What are we doing with our lives?

Just a thought.....

I'm with Fiona 100%.

Amen, Fiona!

Thanks for the great reminder that life is not about instant gratification.

Writing a major piece of software like OmniOutliner isn't like microwaving your dinner. OmniGroup doesn't make those little iphone apps you play with for fifteen minutes and then forget about. They make software that many of us are going to use productively nearly every day for the next decade or more. Creating that kind of quality software takes a huge amount of time, money, brains, and effort.

[QUOTE=abh19;90300]Amen, Fiona!

Thanks for the great reminder that life is not about instant gratification.
[/QUOTE]

no danger of that with omnioutliner 4

Is there any news on OO on iPad? We fanboys are craving...
:-)

nu?

I originally posted a reply here, then decided to move it to a new thread:

[URL="http://forums.omnigroup.com/showthread.php?t=19866"]What's the status of OmniOutliner for iPad?[/URL]

Thanks for letting us know. Looking forward to it, it will nearly make my ipad complete!