What's the status of OmniOutliner for iPad? [A: Now available on App Store!]
 

I used OmniOutliner for iPad for non-testing purposes for the first time this last weekend, opening a document someone emailed me about Macworld, browsing through the content while collapsing rows and hiding columns I didn't need to worry about.

The rich text formatting seems to be working pretty well, though some of the text was temporarily mispositioned when I zoomed up the text size to 150% on the iPad. (It corrected itself when I started editing the text.) None of the attachments (images or otherwise) are drawing yet, and we're still working on issues with undo and redo when making a structural change while an edit is in progress.

So… we've certainly made quite a bit of progress! But we've also still got a lot to do.

Thanks for the update. I am a bit lost with the status of OO for the mac. When can we expect version 4? I honestly miss that more than the iPad version. Perhaps because I have never had it in the iPad, but my desktop tool seems very lacking at this point. Thanks.

[QUOTE=Ken Case;92238]
So… we've certainly made quite a bit of progress! But we've also still got a lot to do.[/QUOTE]

You cannot imagine what I'd give to have OO on my iPad now. I have to make some incredibly convoluted things to go on without it.
So... thanks for the update, and keep on with the good work!

Ouch, and Syncing
 

Heard you guys demoed a version of this for the Macworld, which is exciting. I heard it had a great set of keys on the ipad just for indenting, etc. Sounds great!

Then I heard it was going to take another 6 months of development to get it out (mid-year, no date promised of course.)

Fine, I give up. Will find another solution for another six months.

But can you do a long-time customer and advocate a favor, and please include some sort of support for cloud based services such as iDisk or Dropbox (preferably DB?).

If its going to take six more months to get it right and out the door, at least give us a few good ways to interchange documents between computer and iPad that is flawless. Omnifocus of course is the best example, but I know you don't want to host all of our outlines (although I would happily pay you a few dollars a year to do that if you would like another income stream!).

Just please, please, please, don't make me manage this by hand, as I will not be able to use it if I have to do version management on my own since I use too many different computers and devices.

Hey wolfneuralnet, check out carbonfin outliner. It has synching with its web app. I use it for all my outlining needs and the synch is flawless. The web app is pretty robust and slick feeling for a web app, it ain't google but it is not half bad.

I've been using it on my Mac at home, PC at the office, iPhone and iPad and have yet to even feel the seams between the cloud and desktop.

I second carbonfin outliner. It works very well. In fact, so well that I'm not fully convinced I'll get OO for iPad when it comes out.

I'm sure OO will be better, but right now I'm not sure it will be "better enough" to justify the price differential for me. We'll see. If somehow OO for iPad recreates the pure beauty and functionality of OF for iPad then I may switch.

At any rate, carbonfin outliner is very affordable and very good. Certainly worth using for the next few months, if not longer. And the whole web sync aspect works very nicely.

Dropbox syncing, please!
 

[QUOTE=wolfneuralnet;92468]please include some sort of support for cloud based services such as iDisk or Dropbox (preferably DB?).[/QUOTE]

Yes, please include Dropbox syncing. I don't know how much use I'd have for OmniOutliner for iPad without Dropbox sync. I bought OmniGraffle for iPad and it's pretty much useless as is (without Dropbox sync). I can't open existing OmniGraffle documents from Dropbox, and I can't save documents from the iPad to Dropbox for further work on the Mac.

Sign up for the [URL="https://sync.omnigroup.com"]Omni Sync Service[/URL], which is free and supported by the Omni iPad apps and works with the Mac Finder, the iWork apps on the iPad, etc.

I can open OmniGraffle documents in my Dropbox in OmniGraffle on the iPad. Here's what I do:

Open Dropbox
Find the file and tap on it to open in Dropbox. See a bunch of XML.
Tap the "output" button at upper right (box with a curved arrow) and choose OmniGraffle from the resulting Open In... menu.

This does create a new document in OmniGraffle every time, and you can't save back to the Dropbox folder to my knowledge, but you should be able to open documents left in your Dropbox folder in this fashion.

While Omni Sync is excellent the problem is much bigger than simply adding yet another file service to what is already a growing list. Apple has absolved themselves of responsibility when it comes to file management on the iOS. Unfortunately users suffer as is evidenced by the number of posts on app makers forums crying out for Dropbox, WebDAV, wifi, bluetooth, and iDisk support.

iDisk is stupidly expensive so a company's best and most responsible course is to provide access to the most used service as a priority and work their way down through the chain. It's a sad state of affairs really and I don't see why more people aren't up in arms about this serious oversight in iOS.

One unfortunate side effect I'd that many apps expect you to re-enter data into their apps rather than offering some kind of text file import. Writing such an import becomes much bigger a task when the OS provides no clear way to work with files.

Thanks for tips!

[QUOTE=whpalmer4;92533]Sign up for the [URL="https://sync.omnigroup.com"]Omni Sync Service[/URL], which is free and supported by the Omni iPad apps and works with the Mac Finder, the iWork apps on the iPad, etc.[/QUOTE]

I set up OmniFocus sync via Omni Sync, and that seems to work well. However, there's no method of setting up Omni Sync within OmniGraffle. There isn't even a settings panel, only the Import Document button in the top bar, which has the Copy from iDisk and Copy from WebDAV functions. If anyone knows how to set up Omni Sync in OmniGraffle for iPad, please let me know.

[QUOTE=whpalmer4;92533]I can open OmniGraffle documents in my Dropbox in OmniGraffle on the iPad. Here's what I do: Open Dropbox Find the file and tap on it to open in Dropbox. See a bunch of XML. Tap the "output" button at upper right (box with a curved arrow) and choose OmniGraffle from the resulting Open In... menu.[/QUOTE]

Thanks! Now I'm can open OmniGraffle documents from my Dropbox on the iPad, which is 50% of what I need. Hope this works in OmniOutliner for iPad also. (Although I'm still hoping for full Dropbox sync...)

[QUOTE=Tuomo Suominen;92558]I set up OmniFocus sync via Omni Sync, and that seems to work well. However, there's no method of setting up Omni Sync within OmniGraffle. There isn't even a settings panel, only the Import Document button in the top bar, which has the Copy from iDisk and Copy from WebDAV functions. If anyone knows how to set up Omni Sync in OmniGraffle for iPad, please let me know.
[/quote]
Omni Sync Service is just WebDAV, so that is the option you use. The site field will be [url]https://sync.omnigroup.com/your_user_name[/url] and the user name and password fields get your user name and password for the service, of course.
[quote]
Thanks! Now I'm can open OmniGraffle documents from my Dropbox on the iPad, which is 50% of what I need. Hope this works in OmniOutliner for iPad also. (Although I'm still hoping for full Dropbox sync...)[/QUOTE]
While I agree that it would be convenient to have Dropbox support built-in, I would probably prefer that they spent the time implementing additional OmniOutliner functionality rather than yet another file access method. With the Mac version, one at least has the opportunity to try to provide missing features via Applescript, but there is no such opportunity on the iPad. It won't matter that I can more easily get a file into the app if the app doesn't support the OO feature I need to use!

[QUOTE=wolfneuralnet;92468]
Then I heard it was going to take another 6 months of development to get it out (mid-year, no date promised of course.)
[/QUOTE]

Really???????
Please someone tell me it's not the case...

[QUOTE=vegaz;92584]Really???????
Please someone tell me it's not the case...[/QUOTE]
Okay, it's not the case. Feeling better now? :-)

But seriously, when Ken posts that he's just used it for the first time in a non-testing mode, and says there's a lot of work left to do, well, you've been around long enough to know that means there's a lot of work they expect to have to do, and probably a fair amount that they don't know about yet. Remember Hofstadter's Law:[indent][I]It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.[/I][/indent]
The 90/90 rule often rears its head, too:[indent][I]The first 90% of the work takes 90% of the time, and the other 10% of the work takes the other 90% of the time.[/I][/indent]

[QUOTE=whpalmer4;92561]Omni Sync Service is just WebDAV, so that is the option you use. The site field will be [url]https://sync.omnigroup.com/your_user_name[/url] and the user name and password fields get your user name and password for the service, of course.[/QUOTE]

Thanks! The Omni Sync roundtrip works with OmniGraffle documents. Uploaded a bunch of OmniGraffle documents from the Mac to the Omni Sync WebDAV server, imported and edited them in OmniGraffle on the iPad, and exported back to the Omni Sync WebDAV server. Upload times were horribly slow (10 megs took 20 minutes to upload), but then again, the server obviously isn't meant for anything else than syncing OmniFocus tasks ([URL="http://shawnblanc.net/2011/01/ars-case-interview/"]http://shawnblanc.net/2011/01/ars-case-interview/[/URL]).

[QUOTE=whpalmer4;92589]Okay, it's not the case. Feeling better now? :-)
[/QUOTE]

well, not really, but thanks anyway for trying to cheer me up :-)
The fact is, there is no viable outliner alternative on the iPad for now. I have Carbonfin, but it does not even come close to OO. Apart from the fact that their only common language is OPML, which could be acceptable of course, what really irks me is that you can import files in Carbonfin only uploading them on their website, creating an account on which you really have no control (and, I suppose, not even SSL access). I need to be able to either upload the files through iTunes (which Carbonfin does not support) or using webdav or a similar service. Add to that that Carbonfin, as far as I know, does not support any formatting, and you can understand why I'm sometimes even thinking about getting a MacBook Air just to use OO.
That said, since there is nothing else to do, I'll wait I guess... :-)

Omni Outliner sync with other apps / services
 

I'm a heavy user of OO and of Evernote, so I would love to see a sync option for that; as well as above mentioned Dropbox, iWork, iDisk etc.
I'm using Egretlist app on the iPhone, which syncs nicely with Evernote, but I so miss my excellent OO options... Would there be any chance of Omni apps partnering with Evernote in the future regarding sync?

[QUOTE=Radzster;92651]Would there be any chance of Omni apps partnering with Evernote in the future regarding sync?[/QUOTE]
They probably wouldn't say there's no chance, but when asked about things like Dropbox sync support (which would have applicability to multiple Omni apps), they've expressed a preference for using open standards such as WebDAV rather than building to one company's offerings. But as always, if there's something you want them to build, change, or fix, use Help->Send Feedback or Contact Omni to send in some email so the request gets into the development database.

[QUOTE=Tuomo Suominen;92601]Upload times were horribly slow (10 megs took 20 minutes to upload), but then again, the server obviously isn't meant for anything else than syncing OmniFocus tasks ([URL="http://shawnblanc.net/2011/01/ars-case-interview/"]http://shawnblanc.net/2011/01/ars-case-interview/[/URL]).[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure it is that obvious! But thanks for the link to the interview, which I hadn't seen. It's amusing to read the Ars Technica article, follow the link to [URL="http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/02/omni-invests-in-the-future-with-ipad-delays-mac-updates.ars"]last year's interview[/URL], and read all the comments.

I think there are some inefficiencies in the WebDAV support on the Omni iOS apps, but haven't had time to investigate more closely. If my hunch is correct, it is almost doubling the time required to send a file there!

Part of your problem is likely to be your location; there's only one server, not a world-wide network of them only a few hops away (my time to Omni's server is about 29 ms vs. 230 ms to wsoy.fi, for example). I'm able to send files to the server from my Mac at my (upload) line rate, about half a megabit per second, which works out to roughly 2 1/2 minutes to write a 10 megabyte file. With the generally excellent Scandinavian broadband, you might be better off finding a WebDAV provider more local to you. Transferring the same file to my Mac over my network, I see data rates up to 1.2 megabytes/second on the inbound interface.

[QUOTE=whpalmer4;92699] With the generally excellent Scandinavian broadband, you might be better off finding a WebDAV provider more local to you. [/QUOTE]

I'd suggest a free account on mydrive.ch. I think you get 2GB free, WebDAV standard.

It almost pains me to say this because I also believe that an open service system (WebDAV) is preferable to one company's offerings...yet...

I've used dozens of 'cloud' based storage systems and nothing touches DropBox for service, support, and speed. I don't pay a thing for any of them (except my brief time using iDisk to test it out) so perhaps that is why service has periodically sucked with every WebDAV provider I have tried. DropBox has remained consistently fast and available despite never needing to go beyond the free 2gig limit.

That is probably why I see people screaming for DB support on nearly every iOS forum I visit. People thank the stars when it is there and simply use other apps when it is not.

I was honestly a late convert to DB but now that I'm on board I find it absolutely necessary. WebDAV is clunky requiring too much middleware and messy setup. DropBox just works. I'm a big fan of 'just works' these days.

Damn, now I sound like an advert >_<

With all this talk of webDAV and Dropbox, I thought I'd mention:
You all considered DropDAV, right?

To whpalmer, that might make your graffle workflow a little smoother. And, if omni supports WebDAV and not Dropbox, there's your best of both worlds.
Unfortunately, and for reasons beyond my understanding, I get errors when trying to use it with OmniFocus. I imagine it has something to with the OF file structure.

Tried it with OmniGraffle and OmniGraphSketcher, but there are some issues that make it fail. Omni is apparently investigating with the DropDAV developer. It's probably not the OmniFocus file format, given that it also doesn't work with the other Omni iPad apps, and it also doesn't work with the Mac OS 10.6 Finder in my experience. The Omni apps and the Finder work fine with Apache.

Interesting, thanks!

It's unfortunate that DropDAV doesn't work with both. It would make life slightly easier for me being able to go through Dropbox from the Omni apps, but even more of a win for me would be using the Finder to access Dropbox on a machine where Dropbox isn't installed (or has someone else's setup). Yeah, you can use the web browser interface to Dropbox, but it doesn't handle packages (used by many of the Omni apps) or give you the convenience of the Finder's tools.

Now, if I could edit Dropbox files cached on my iPad (via the My Favorites mechanism) when I'm offline, and have the changes sent back to Dropbox for propagation upon my next connection (like Mail does with IMAP accounts, or OmniFocus, of course), that would be very nice! I expect I'll be running OmniOutliner on my 3G iPad 2 before I see that, though...maybe even OmniPlan, too! :-)

Bluetooth Keyboard
 

Is there going to be support in OO for more extensive bluetooth keyboard use?In contrast to OF for iPad, OO is much more functional if data entry is easy. I would love the option of taking my bluetooth keyboard to a conference, etc. and using it to make notes in OO. OF allows typing with a bluetooth keyboard but you must use the touchscreen to navigate around.

[QUOTE=WTFMD;94159]Is there going to be support in OO for more extensive bluetooth keyboard use?In contrast to OF for iPad, OO is much more functional if data entry is easy. I would love the option of taking my bluetooth keyboard to a conference, etc. and using it to make notes in OO. OF allows typing with a bluetooth keyboard but you must use the touchscreen to navigate around.[/QUOTE]

So few apps, even databases (!) on the iPad support the TAB key on them to navigate. It's a real pain but in the few cases I've spoken to developers about this it seems most aren't even testing with keyboards.

This is another thing that has always been in the Mac OS at it's most fundamental level. Developers didn't even need to think about it. The oversight probably is more Apple's fault than anything but we can only hope devs see the dropped ball and implement better solutions.

Day to leave Omni
 

Ok, this has become ridiculous. I've waited long enough for both OO 4 and OO for iPad. Get real guys.

OF for iPad was amazing, and bought you a lot of time. But this is silly. I'll start looking for ANY alternatives to Omni. I can't hold my workflow hostage.

[QUOTE=jamesafoster;94486]Ok, this has become ridiculous. I've waited long enough for both OO 4 and OO for iPad. Get real guys.

OF for iPad was amazing, and bought you a lot of time. But this is silly. I'll start looking for ANY alternatives to Omni. I can't hold my workflow hostage.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like you know what to do. No need for the negativity though. I use Taskpaper for my "other lists." Carbonfin makes others happy too.

If OmniGroup is taking longer that we expect to launch OO for the iPad is not about they are sleeping or not involve in the develop.

The App Store and the Mac App Store, the iPad launch, Mac World, the beta of iOS 4.3, Lion incoming. These days are crazy for a Mac developer who has more that one app.

I'm waiting for both OO for the iPad and OO 4 but, you know what, NOTHING in the market approach to OO. I'll keep waiting and when the app will be ready they will launch it. Each pence of euro (in my case) I gave to OmniGroup has been reward with a great user experience, updates improving the apps, great customer service and AMAZING SOFTWARE.

I think sometimes, that the OmniFocus for the iPad was an inflection point for this company, the UI is being re design in all the app (my guessing) and it takes time. I'm pretty sure that OmniOutliner will be great and better than the version 3, and I can´t wait to have it in my iPad and my iPhone.

OmniGroup changed my workflow and my life and I can`t be thankfully enough.

Keep the faith. :-)

Well said shinfu :)
Yeah, I bought an alternative because I needed something in the meantime.

It would be helpful if Omni would update the status on a reasonably frequent basis.

[QUOTE=mytreeoutside;94534]Well said shinfu :)
Yeah, I bought an alternative because I needed something in the meantime.[/QUOTE]

I tried to send a message offline but this forum does not allow it. So, I guess I have to ask in public... what alternative did you find in the meantime?

Thanks.

It is called carbonfin outliner, cheers.

Taskpaper works best for me. Excellent software, with a native Mac component.

[QUOTE=mytreeoutside;94883]Taskpaper works best for me. Excellent software, with a native Mac component.[/QUOTE]

Cool. Carbonfin Outliner has the benefit of free and robust web app with flawless synch. This makes it available anywhere which is good for me as I move around a lot.

I'll check out tp, I had it on iPhone for a while iirc.

Yeah, OTA sync which will soon be Dropbox sold me. Still happy about OO though! ;)

at this rate, is omni waiting for ios 5?

[QUOTE=sgecko;95422]at this rate, is omni waiting for ios 5?[/QUOTE]

No need to worry about that. It'll definitely be an iOS 4.x release. Stay tuned.

that's great news, thanks!

TextExpander Support
 

FYI, TextExpander support has just been added to the iPad Outliner app... Out-of-the-box support for TE on OO iPad would be nice, especially since I'm still waiting for TE support on OmniFocus Touch...

[QUOTE=hypotyposis;95579]FYI, TextExpander support has just been added to the iPad Outliner app...[/QUOTE]

I was momentarily confused, then I realized this meant Carbonfin Outliner for iPad, not OmniOutliner. :-)

We do have a feature request open on TextExpander support in OmniOutliner for iPad; as always, email the [EMAIL="omnioutliner-ipad@omnigroup.com"]support ninjas[/EMAIL] and let them know what you need.

(This isn't a promise that we'll get that feature in there for the initial release; I'm just saying that you shouldn't let the fact that the app hasn't been released yet stop you from letting us know what you'd like to see in it.)

[QUOTE=Brian;95590]I was momentarily confused, then I realized this meant Carbonfin Outliner for iPad, not OmniOutliner. :-)

We do have a feature request open on TextExpander support in OmniOutliner for iPad; as always, email the [EMAIL="omnioutliner-ipad@omnigroup.com"]support ninjas[/EMAIL] and let them know what you need.

(This isn't a promise that we'll get that feature in there for the initial release; I'm just saying that you shouldn't let the fact that the app hasn't been released yet stop you from letting us know what you'd like to see in it.)[/QUOTE]

Thanks Brian, I do know you guys are working hard, etc., however, don't worry, I absolutely won't get my hopes up that you might integrate TextExpander to OO Touch or OF Touch anytime soon: last time I asked, [URL="http://forums.omnigroup.com/showpost.php?p=90108&postcount=11"]you said[/URL] it was one of the more frequently requested features. That was last December. (Yes, there is more than a slight disappointment in my tone.)

This whole thing saddens me. It's been over a year of users begging for OO on the iPad, and then I look through this new thread started by Ken to address the issue, and half the comments reference competitors' products!

I guess Knowledge Management apps are going the way of 45s and Usenet.

OmniOutliner for iPad has been submitted to the App Store, and is now waiting for Apple's review! (Screenshots, etc., coming soon…)

It was difficult not mentioning how close it was :-)

What great news!

I'm excited! (I must get out more....).

Does omnioutliner for ipad allow for the use of the tab key to change levels of the outline using a bluetooth keyboard?

Yes, if you have a 1 column outline. For a multiple column outline, it jumps to the next column; I haven't figured out if there's a way to control the behavior like there is on the Mac. There are a pair of buttons onscreen that move things up and down a level. Unfortunately, the keyboard shortcuts from the Mac app to do things like add a child row don't work, which may require some of us to learn some new tricks!

Just curious if after OmniOutliner for iPad is installed, if OO documents will be viewable with the iOS Quick Look (e.g. an attachment in an email) or must that functionality be added by Apple to the iOS?

[QUOTE=Greg Jones;96869]Just curious if after OmniOutliner for iPad is installed, if OO documents will be viewable with the iOS Quick Look (e.g. an attachment in an email) or must that functionality be added by Apple to the iOS?[/QUOTE]

I'm afraid that QuickLook previews in other apps (such as Mail) only support built-in formats; adding previews like ours would require some new iOS support from Apple. (You will, of course, be able to open those emailed documents in OmniOutliner.)

Thanks Ken, that's what I suspected. Time for the Omni Group to lobby Apple to include this in iOS 5!

Since i have but little voice, i would like to state that the app looks great. I just downloaded a few oo3 docs from my Mac to my iPad and they work like a charm. I am not a user of Internet connections to sync documents, so this works fine for me. I also have Carbonfin outliner and it's good, but it doesn't sync by iTunes (to bad, maybe in the near future).
So, this app is of great importance to me. Thanks for the great effort and i'm looking forward to what will be next.

Thanks for the kind words, Eric - we're all pretty excited to get this thing out to folks. :-)

One of the beauties of carbonfin is that it doesn't need iTunes, it's synching is almost invisible, and it works anywhere and on any system, even when your iPad isn't around...even when iTunes isn't on your computer. A reliance on iTunes is a far worse option :)

And yes, OO for iPad is excellent! Has me hungry for the future.