OmniOutliner for the iPhone
 

Sorry there hasn't been any news on this. We do greatly appreciate everyone's interest in this app. We have been strongly considering developing OmniOutliner for the iPhone and we may very well do so in the future. However, right now we are making OmniOutliner 4 our priority.

Part of the reason for this is that we feel we need to know more about what features people would be looking for out of OmniOutliner for the iPhone. Due to the limitations of the iPhone hardware and software, not everything will be possible. Here's some specific questions that have come up in our discussions:

1) Do you need multiple columns of data, column types, or the column summary options?

2) Do you need formatting support? Or just plain text like OmniFocus for the iPhone.

3) Do you need attachment support?

4) Should it be a viewer only, or have editing capabilities? If just a viewer only, how well does the Quick Look preview/DHTML export meet your needs? (Viewing the export on the iPhone that is)

5) What kind of syncing expectations do you have? This would be one big reason why OmniOutliner 4 needs to be developed first as OO3 is not designed for merging synced changes.

If you have any other specific expectations for the app, please let us know too. Thanks for your feedback and support!

I use OmniOutliner for home and work. Here are my thoughts:

#1 - While 1 column "could" suffice, I'd strongly prefer the iPhone and desktop to be identical in structure -- thus, yes to multiple columuns. Maybe cap it at 5 if needed.
#2 - Absolutely yes to formating (I'd like it on Omnifocus too:)
#3 - Attachment support not needed for me
#4 - I would like it to be fully editable. A non-editable list is not very useful. Maybe a non-editable version could be created quickly while you're working on OO4. It would be better than nothing for the short term.
#5 - Sync-able with my desktop unit is a must

As for OO4 I'd like to add syncing, "tabs" (like Excel or Safari), and time numbering/calc.

Unique tabs (documents) in one master document -- with the ability to start numbering at 1 for each document OR continue from the document before.

I would also very much like to add "time" and "time calc" columns for for making timed meeting agendas, events, and lists - 5 min 8:30a - Open; 10 min 8:35a - Presentation 1; 60 min 8:45a - Presentation 2; 9:45a - End Time. To be able to have a dynamic outliner that can handle time well -- assigning a start time with time for each element, then being able to dynamically rearrange the outline and have the times automatically adjust correctly would be INCREDIBLE! Even Excel has a hard time doing this well without complicated formula. As a leader of several meetings and events, this function would be huge for me!!!

As much as I'm looking forward to OO for the iPhone, I am delighted to read your priority is OO 4. I am very eager to have it. Is there a beta program we can sign up for?

I would like to see a fully functional version of OO for the iPhone complete with all the formatting and column options present in the full version. But, I can appreciate the limitations of the iPhone platform and would be satisfied if OO4 were to be introduced with a limited iPhone "extension" functionally.
One of the great features of the iPhone component of OmniFocus is being able to capture items which need to be acted on, whenever the thought arises, by reaching into your pocket and tapping in enough to act as a placeholder. Later, on the computer, the spelling can be fixed, contexts and due dates assigned, etc. Having the complete "open loop" collection in your pocket for reference is also invaluable.
Being able to have the same tool available for brainstorming and making initial outlines when the thought occurs would really extend the usefulness of the full version of OO. So with these principles in mind I will address your points;

1. I do not need column support. Simply being able to capture and display a simple representation of an OO document would be better than having no iPhone support.

2. The iPhone view of the outline could easily be in plain text or with a default formatting structure. I would still be free to format the document to my hearts content on the computer but the "syncable" component of the outline could be generic.

3. Attachment support would be nice but size limitations and file types virtually make this impossible. Simply showing the name and type of the attached file would serve to remind me what was in the master outline. That said, being able to use the iPhone to attach pictures and sound (like iPhone OF) would be a desired exception and must be in any OO iPhone component.

4. The iPhone extension must have a limited editing capacity which could be as simple as adding a new row and moving rows around, which would suffice for starting a new outline and adding new thoughts to an existing one.

5. The syncing does not have to be as elaborate as it is in the iPhone OF product. Even a manually initiated transfer of data would suffice.

I feel strongly that OO4 would become a much more widely used app if it had a component which could integrate with the iPhone. The iPhone is a device which is replacing the laptop computer in some functions, I am even going on some short business trips with it as my only computing device, as are many of my colleagues. An outlining tool will emerge as a standard on these mobile devices, I am hoping it will be my favorite, OO.

Paul

I'd be happy with 3 or 4 columns, although I could live with one. Attachments would be nice, even with limitations. formatting isn't important to me. Synching is very important. Being able to add or delete items and edit is important. But as for functions, the basic outliner is all I need. for anything else there is Omni Focus.

I realize others may have different needs (like some people may depend on columns, etc), so just speaking for myself:
1. No.
2. No.
3. No.
4. Yes. Not very useful otherwise.
5. Syncing wired/wireless to the computer would be OK. Over the web to an account (like CarbonFin Outliner) would be better.

I've been using CarbonFin Outliner and have been very happy with it. Most of my outlines are simple lists, so it meets my needs.

I just spent sometime going through my OO files and I see that one column would be all I need for anything I would want to synch to my iphone. I also have CarbonFin, but I don't like having to export files in OPML, then logging in, then uploading. Too many steps, and if I make changes, then I have to go through the whole process again to be up to date.

A simple outliner / check list is really all I need.

1) all my outlines use multicolumn and about half use summaries

2) all of my outlines are use basic with the occasional alternate color for clarity

3) yes

4) at least checkbox editing, but being able to add to a list or correct typos, too, Yes.

5) with cloud computing syncing is essential

here's what i want from omnioutliner for i phone/itouch....
the ability to display/read a subset of omnioutliner files, let's call it "m."
the ability of oop3 to save and convert most files to the m mobile format as special web page apps deal with mobile devices.
the ability of the iphone/ipod app to read rtf files.
perhaps omni could also supply a secure server service so that when we synch our iphones to apple for app updates, our prized data is not automatically uploaded to apple co.
short of that, encryption would be sweet
-marc

My two cents:
1: Ok column support. Ordering by columns is enough for me.
2: No formatting support
3: Yes attachment support (considering the size limitations)
4: Editing capabilities, also basic. A simple viewer while you develop the product would be great!
5: Sync as OF does, with the same options.

i was just emailed a blog (from chuck frey) about the OPML outlining markup language for the iphone and touch. one of omni's iphone competitors is integrating with another company's desktop mind mapping software. so far information can only be passed from phone to mac and not the other way, presumably because the language is a subset of what a desktop can do.
i hope omni hasn't missed the boat here.

My biggest use will be from within omnifocus for errands and event task lists. For example, I have an omnifocus errand context for the supermarket with an embedded omnioutliner list containing the detail. On the iPhone I would like to check off the items as I cart them, and resync back to my laptop.

1) multiple columns/column types/column summaries
Would be nice, but not essential.

2) Formatting: No. Frankly I find them a nuisance in the desktop edition, but I realize I'm a minority on that. ;)

3) Attachments: No.

4) Editing: YES!!

5) Sync: YES!! (at least as good as OmniFocus, though I hope you eventually have over the air syncing without MobileMe or WebDAV)

Just wanted to place my vote to get this on the iPhone. Thank
I think it would be great to have it function just like Omnifocus does. I envision using this for other check lists that are not projects or tasks. Guess I could do that with Omnifocus, but it just might clutter things up...

1) No
2) No, just plain text
3) Not important. Maybe later.
4) Yes, i need basic editing capabilities
5) Sync over the cloud is very important for me. But not as granular as in OF. The cloud should always have the newest version of a file but must not merge changes!

The ability to sync with the iPhone is high on my list of "must haves" and I continue to look for it. In my work as an engineer and construction manager there is a lot of "reference" information that I need to look up, add to, update and modify on the go. For example, accounting cost codes, bid proposals, material properties, contract clauses, etc.

A simplified iPhone outliner that syncs with the desktop outliner would be a huge addition to the Omni family of products. Enhancements such as multiple columns could be added in the future.

You have a tremendous edge on your competitors right now with the sync features of Omnifocus. I have thought about trying to use it for my iPhone outline needs but keep hoping you will fill the gap.

In the windows environment, the outliner InfoSelect for the Palm provides a very practical and useful solution that might serve as a model. In the desktop outliner you select which sections are synced with the handheld outliner. So the file can be much smaller on the handheld. On the desktop you can edit and treat the sync-sections in the same way you do any other section. When the sync-sections are synced, some simplifications in formatting, attachments, etc. are made to take the info into the handheld. While on the handheld, the sync-section info can be edited, added to, deleted, reorganized, etc. and when the next sync occurs those changes are made in the desktop info. So, while there are some compromises in features, the user can take info back and forth.

1) A single column with indented levels made up of rows and notes that expand and collapse. A note can be given a title as well as contents. If a note does not have a title, the first line of the note's contents shows up in the row when the note is collapsed.

2) Plain text like OmniFocus for the iPhone would be enough. It is the information that is of primary importance and most of that can be in text.

3) Attachment support? No.

4) Full editing is necessary.

5) Full, two-way syncing. Merging changes.

Thanks,
Bob

[quote=DerekM;52971]
1) Do you need multiple columns of data, column types, or the column summary options?
[/quote]

Yes, though I wouldn't mind 1.0 to only support basic one-column outlines. Better than nothing!

[quote]
2) Do you need formatting support? Or just plain text like OmniFocus for the iPhone.
[/quote]Plain text is fine, as long as syncing does not kill formatting on the computer.

[quote]
3) Do you need attachment support?
[/quote]No.

[quote]
4) Should it be a viewer only, or have editing capabilities?
[/quote]Editing is key! To enter ideas as they come up, anywhere.

[quote]
5) What kind of syncing expectations do you have?
[/quote]Ability to choose some files to keep in sync.

Search. Gotta have it. Useless without it. I use outlines to record what I've done at job sites, or squirrel away bits of information that might prove useful, and, later, to bring up those details when I see similar problems, etc. Without the ability to search - the lack of which in OmniFocus on the Touch annoys me - I can't get find the information I need.

Formatting would be nice. I don't like doing it all nice and pretty on the laptop only to lose it when I make an update on the Touch.

In general, think BrainForest for the Palm platform. That rocked.

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]1) Do you need multiple columns of data, column types, or the column summary options?[/QUOTE]
That would be nice, but not essential. I live and die by OO3, and I've got some huge files, but never more than two columns. If I need a spread sheet, I'll use a spread sheet. Outliner is fantastic for... outlines. Lists. Etc.
[QUOTE]2) Do you need formatting support? Or just plain text like OmniFocus for the iPhone.[/QUOTE]
If it needs to be plain text to get out the door, do it. Right now, for grocery lists (for instance), I'm synching up trash notes in iCal and just putting in the essential info in the event's notes pane.

What OO4 needs (on the iPhone), is at least the ability to have a list, hopefully nested, and to mark items done. If you can set OO4 to override sleep preferences so your iPhone doesn't go to sleep while you're using a list, that would be handy, too.

Eventually, though, it would be good to fully support desktop formatting for when you're working in the field, rather than just running chores.
[QUOTE]3) Do you need attachment support?[/QUOTE]
Need? Not initially, no -- at least, not for basic to-do lists.

Eventually, yes. Attachments are often a key part of project lists and being able to view attachments would be critical for getting the job done.
[QUOTE]4) Should it be a viewer only, or have editing capabilities? If just a viewer only, how well does the Quick Look preview/DHTML export meet your needs? (Viewing the export on the iPhone that is) [/QUOTE]
Viewer would be a start.
Editable would be an eventual necessity, starting first with marking lines done... and sometime later with altering content.
[QUOTE]5) What kind of syncing expectations do you have? This would be one big reason why OmniOutliner 4 needs to be developed first as OO3 is not designed for merging synced changes. [/QUOTE]
This ties into the editing aspect. Initially, no synch is necessary beyond getting into the iPhone and viewing it. Optimally, synching should work both ways for a given document.
[QUOTE]If you have any other specific expectations for the app, please let us know too. Thanks for your feedback and support![/QUOTE]
Having it is the only thing I'd prioritize as "expectation."

Personally, I Get Plenty Done using an outline – I don't require some external system to help me organize my life. OO3 is like a magic paper notepad for me. It just works (Jobs would be proud). That's why I'm so anxious to see some version of OO[X] get over the iPhone.

If you really want to do something cool, above and beyond, find a way to integrate OO4 into iCal, maybe as something embeddable or linkable in an event... or as a way to supplement or replace the To Do list in iCal... and make it synchable. iCal is just begging for a 3rd party-tweak, you guys could do it well...

My 2 cents:

1) yes

2) no

3) no

4) I would love editing capabilities. One my uses for OO is preparing checklists that I have to bring around printed, ticking them as I go. Therefore I'd like to use an iPhone OO as a substitute for my printed lists, with the ability to tick the checkboxes.

5) sync? I'd just be able to upload specific files on the iPhone OO, and vice versa

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]1) Do you need multiple columns of data, column types, or the column summary options?[/QUOTE]
No.
[QUOTE]2) Do you need formatting support? Or just plain text like OmniFocus for the iPhone.[/QUOTE]
Generally plain text. The basics (bold, italic, underline, colour) would be good (like Shadowplan for Palm)

And do try to give a global option of smaller text sizes so we can see more on the screen. See the iPhone app: Zeptoliner which does this:

[IMG]http://zeptoliner.com/img/zeptoliner_img_top.png[/IMG]

(I can't believe how much white screen space and text leading that Apps waste on the iphone [including OmniFocus] compared to apps like Agendus and Shadowplan on the Palm that let you fit heaps of stuff in. Maybe its intrinsic in the iPhone OS and GUI guidelines - beauty reigns over function sometimes at Apple).
[QUOTE]3) Do you need attachment support?[/QUOTE]
No.
[QUOTE]4) Should it be a viewer only, or have editing capabilities?[/QUOTE]
It [B]has[/B] to have editing capabilities. This is the problem with the iPhone right now, too much that you can view but can't change. All my Shadowplan outlines on the Palm were regularly added to or modified while "on the road". Come to think of it - I rarely edited them on the computer.
[QUOTE]5) What kind of syncing expectations do you have? This would be one big reason why OmniOutliner 4 needs to be developed first as OO3 is not designed for merging synced changes. [/QUOTE]
MobileMe cloud syncing like OmniFocus would be great.
[QUOTE]If you have any other specific expectations for the app, please let us know too. Thanks for your feedback and support![/QUOTE]

The current iPhone/iTouch outliner [URL="http://zeptoliner.com/index.html"]Zeptoliner[/URL] is probably the one I like the look of right now, but I'd rather have an iPhone Omni that syncs with MobileMe the way that OmniFocus does

Basically if you make it like [B]Shadowplan[/B] was/is on the Palm I will write an [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oratorio"]Oratorio[/URL] in your honour and perform it at sunrise at Uluru :-)

[IMG]http://www.ezthemes.com/previews/u/ulurusunset.jpg[/IMG]

Palm Brainforest to iPhone?
 

Unfortunately, I still use a Palm for the Brainforest outliner. I'm dying to ditch them both and move over to an iPod touch. I'm not a big phone user and hate AT&T.

I've tried OmniFocus and find it too complex for my uses. Things and Life Balance both offer Mac and iPhone versions that sync both ways.

It seems like OmniOutliner might be a better fit, especially if it had:

FULL editing and creation of files on the iPhone/iPod touch.
Sync BOTH ways between the Mac and iPhone/iPod touch versions!

Formatting isn't a big issue for me, function is!
Attachments? Not necessary.
Some kind of iCal interconnection would be great!

OmniOutliner files on the iPhone
 

Derek,

You asked: should it be a viewer only, or have editing capabilities? If just a viewer only, how well does the Quick Look preview/DHTML export meet your needs? (Viewing the export on the iPhone that is)

In the first instance that is all I need - I now use OF for task management and OO for a myriad of notes - i.e. anything that needs to be kept and added to later. Some are quite complex and have two or three columns as well as notes. A Quick Look view on the iPhone would be fine, but would need to be coupled with a means of synchronising the files with the originals on my desktop Mac - so how about doing a deal with FileMagnet?!

Also - security might be an issue so can I raise the option to encrypt a whole OO file again?

I hope this helps,

Ian

PS I have been a big OG fan for several years and use you programs at work and home

I would like to add my voice to everyone else who would like to see OO for the iPhone. I'm glad to see that there is interest in developping this product. Here are my answers.

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]1) Do you need multiple columns of data, column types, or the column summary options?[/quote]
I would like to see multiple columns of data. I often need to make multi column lists so for me, it's very well needed.

[quote]2) Do you need formatting support? Or just plain text like OmniFocus for the iPhone.[/quote]
Formatting is nice, but not a necessity. But, for long list, being able to have some kind of formatting would be very helpful.

[quote]3) Do you need attachment support?[/quote]
Not essential, but would be nice.

[quote]4) Should it be a viewer only, or have editing capabilities? If just a viewer only, how well does the Quick Look preview/DHTML export meet your needs? (Viewing the export on the iPhone that is) [/quote]
Here, I truly believe that editing capabilities is essential. For viewing, we can export the list as HTML and voilà! What is really neat with the iPhone is being able to edit the data on the fly, to be able to add or remove or change some bullet from the list. I don't see any reason to make OO for the iPhone if there is no way to edit the data.

[quote]5) What kind of syncing expectations do you have? This would be one big reason why OmniOutliner 4 needs to be developed first as OO3 is not designed for merging synced changes. [/quote]
This one goes hand in hand with 4). If we can edit the data, we need to be able to sync it back with the original file on our computer.

I hope this all makes sense.

Nelson

OmniOutliner on my iPod touch is the single most important app I've been hoping for! I will mostly use it for categorized checklists. Editing and checking things off are essential, as is syncing to the desktop. I personally would get by without the columns, formatting, and attachments.

My only other concern would be to have a very efficient and flexible browser for my OO files. Sorting alphabetically, by creation date, or by modification date or most-recently-viewed would be useful options. But I might just want to sort them manually, or into a Finder-like folder structure. The bottom line being, finding the outline I need must be as intuitive and effortless as possible, regardless of how many outlines I have.

Thanks to the Omni team for soliciting our input on this!

I got my iPod touch today and have been trying to find an immediate solution without resorting to buying OmniFocus. I've been using the free version of OmniOutliner a bit and must say I HATE the convoluted formatting functions, powerful as they may be. Maybe I'll get used to it.

CarbonFin Outliner, for iPhone/iPod touch, allows you to sync OmniOutliner files with their Outliner online. It seems pretty kludgy to me, but it might be worth a look.

[url]http://carbonfin.com/[/url]
[url]http://outliner.carbonfin.com/[/url]

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]
1) Do you need multiple columns of data, column types, or the column summary options?[/QUOTE]

Yes. I often use multi columns and column types in OO, and it's really annoying that my current outliner CarbonFin doesn't support it. No need for column summaries.

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]
2) Do you need formatting support? Or just plain text like OmniFocus for the iPhone.
[/QUOTE]
No, I would prefer to have no formatting support! Perhaps colors, but definitly no fonts or font sizes!

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]
3) Do you need attachment support?
[/QUOTE]
Yes, but limited to URLs and Pictures. No need for music and other stuff.

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]
4) Should it be a viewer only, or have editing capabilities? If just a viewer only, how well does the Quick Look preview/DHTML export meet your needs? (Viewing the export on the iPhone that is)
[/QUOTE]
Definitly editable! It's a must!

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]
5) What kind of syncing expectations do you have? This would be one big reason why OmniOutliner 4 needs to be developed first as OO3 is not designed for merging synced changes.
[/QUOTE]
Syncing via iTunes, perhaps also direct in OmniOutliner 4. Syncing via web would be cool, too.
It's very important, that the files are not destroyed, if they contain anything, that is not supported by the iPhone app. E.g. if a file with different fonts will be synced with the mobile OO and synced back to my Mac, it must not loose any information, including fonts, colors, columns, attachments - wether these attributes are shown in the mobile app or not, they have to be back there and not lost!


cu, Micha

Editing and Sync
 

It makes me wonder if there is something wrong with someone's brain. "Do you want the ability to edit your outline on the iPhone?" Helloo_oo! Of course?

The little "Things" app is very nice and (after some growing pains) syncs very nicely, but it is not an outliner. Still, I will keep on using it no matter what, it has the limited date handling that I need built in without the need to go to calendar.

Splashnotes syncs and you can edit, kind of minimal. They have the concept of all of your outlines being in the app. Of course, no one wants to be forced to have all their outlines on the phone. The question is, how to select which ones? Splashnotes does not have the ability to export OPML (or anything else) on the desk, so they deserve to fall into disuse, and when the omni iphone product arrives, probably will. Looking forward to it!

I did not buy CarbonFin simply because the sync-ing process was klugey.

Formatting on the phone is, for my needs, completely unnecessary.

I can't second guess people who use columns; at the moment it isn't something I have explored.

Thanks for the opportunity to share my thoughts on your questions.

Editing is a necessity. Without editing the app would be useless.

I do not need columns, formatting, attachments, etc. but I do need [B]CLONING[/B] very badly (see comments on the cloning thread). Sorry for shouting, but I cannot overstate how much more useful OO would be with the addition of the cloning capability that MORE had.

OO without cloning lacks half its potential utility. Please include cloning in 004 and in the iPhone version.

Note that the easy ability to [B][I]synch[/I][/B] iPhone outlines to the same outline on the desktop/laptop is [B]absolutely essential[/B] to an iPhone version of OO. iPhones are great for instant idea input, but have poor ergonomics for major data input; a desktop/iPhone synching outline processor with cloning capability would be a great tool.

Editing? DUH!
 

[QUOTE=ggirton;58154]It makes me wonder if there is something wrong with someone's brain. "Do you want the ability to edit your outline on the iPhone?" Helloo_oo! Of course?

The little "Things" app is very nice and (after some growing pains) syncs very nicely, but it is not an outliner.

I can't second guess people who use columns; at the moment it isn't something I have explored.

Thanks for the opportunity to share my thoughts on your questions.[/QUOTE]

Editing? No kidding! What's the point if you can't edit on the fly. Without editing, I'd stick with paper lists.

Shockingly, OmniFocus offers extremely limited editing with the iPhone version. I can create or edit the content of an item, but can't move items to where I want them! OF's syncing is kludgy and not very intuitive. It should be a painless setup and direct via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth. For OF's $100 Mac/iPhone entry fee, I expected A LOT MORE!

The Hit List actually found a nice mid-point between Things and OF. Unfortunately, there's no iPhone version and not hint or promise of a definite release date.

Columns would be nice. They'd actually be quite useful. I keep lists with catalogue numbers, dimensions, colors, etc. and they would be a great option.

[QUOTE=Mr. Reeee;59157]Shockingly, OmniFocus offers extremely limited editing with the iPhone version. I can create or edit the content of an item, but can't move items to where I want them![/QUOTE]

Heh. You should take a closer look at the app or read the manual; you're missing a lot. With the exception of rich text, OmniFocus allows quite a bit of editing, [I]including moving items elsewhere in the outline[/I].

[QUOTE=Mr. Reeee;59157]OF's syncing is kludgy and not very intuitive. It should be a painless setup and direct via Wi-Fi or Bluetooth.[/QUOTE]

Hmm, I don't agree at all. I've found syncing via MobileMe to be [I]virtually painless and very robust[/I]. In fact, I think OmniFocus' syncing is the best I've seen anywhere in any app, including Apple's MobileMe syncing.

I haven't used the Bonjour syncing as much (I prefer the ability to sync from anywhere), but it seems pretty straightforward to me and certainly no more difficult than any other iPhone app that does syncing on the local network.

Bluetooth syncing isn't currently an available option; there's no support for it in the iPhone 2.x platform.

-Dennis

1. Editing (and creation) is a must.

2. Support for basic formatting: Color and Font size based on outline level. First version could require this to be set up and defined on the desktop app. Next release could add limited basic format setup.

3. Multiple columns: First version not required - this again could be something saved for future releases.

4. Attachment Support: Not required for first version, but this would be something to get in quickly (before multiple columns).

5. Sync. Not sure how this would be implemented. OO is not like OF - one big database. I don't want OO to change into an app like OF or Yojimbo, where all of its "documents" are stored in one big database app. I suppose if you support iDisk, and it "monitors" the contents of a folder, and keeps them in sync, that might work. Again, for a first release, a manual method of uploading and downloading files to an attached computer or iDisk would acceptable.

6. Something not yet mentioned: It would be *very* handy to be able to email an OO mobile outline in a plain text or rich text format to somebody. (Say notes from a meeting or a plan or series of steps you want to send somebody).

7. Check box/to-do support


I think it is important to get this product out sooner rather than later. This category of apps is starting to get crowded, and even Documents to Go from DataViz is due this month, which will do all sorts of things, including outlining.

You can see my general approach would be to get a solid app out there, and release updates to grow the feature set.

My two cents.

I think this could be a successful space and a logical direction for OmniGroup, looking at their app line up.

1. No.
2. No.
3. No
4. No
5. Sync

I basically want to keep all of my lists visible and sync-able from my phone. I make a lot of checklists that I want to keep up to date on both.

I would pay $30 for an OO iphone app that syncs, even with basic features. It would pretty much mean that I don't have to take my laptop while traveling. I just have too much important information in OOP and no way to take it on my phone. THanks!!!

[QUOTE=bankomeister;59735]I would pay $30 for an OO iphone app that syncs, even with basic features. It would pretty much mean that I don't have to take my laptop while traveling. I just have too much important information in OOP and no way to take it on my phone. THanks!!![/QUOTE]

Go to the App Store and get a copy of Air Sharing ($5) or a similar app. With that, you can "print" a copy of your OO documents to PDF files which you stash on the iPhone/iPod and view (and even deliver to another computer). I haven't tried anything except Air Sharing, which was a freebie at one point (grabbed it before I even had anything to use it on, as it seemed of obvious utility!), and have no connection to its author. The place where it breaks down for me (besides the obvious case of wanting to edit the document) is with a document that prints more than one page wide. If you just need to carry some reference materials with you, this will may make the wait for an Omni solution more bearable.

To add to my previous note: DropBox has a free option and seems to work acceptably well for this (and other duties requiring moving files about) if you have internet connectivity when you need the files.

Ideally I’d like a fully functional version of OO on my phone. I’d like to open a file on my iphone, edit it, save it, and sync it back to my desktop so that when I open oo4 it seamlessly opens the latest revision. I would not like any information to be lost during the sync. I would be willing to sacrifice attachments (a placeholder would be helpful) and formatting (as long as desktop formatting is preserved).

Without syncing, I’d much rather a viewer app that can meet or beat quickview functions. Expand all, collapse all, hoisting, filtering, re-ordering columns, etc. would all be welcome functions. I would most likely use a note taking app that syncs with my desktop (Evernote for example) to make a list of edits on the fly and import those notes into OO4.

Thanks for the opportunity to add input.

keep it simple!

basic column support
no formatting
full text/hierarchy editing
full merge sync

carbonfin web export is rubbish...

oo4 iphone version. just do it!

oh... and here's another vote for omnioutliner for the iphone! bliss!

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]1) Do you need multiple columns of data, column types, or the column summary options?[/quote]
Yes, not necessarily on one "screen", though. For my uses, it would be sufficient to have one overview mode displaying one whole column for all "entries" and a detail view for each entry with the capability to display the contents of all columns on one page and navigation links to siblings, parents and children.
[quote]2) Do you need formatting support? Or just plain text like OmniFocus for the iPhone.[/quote]
Plain text is sufficient.
[quote]3) Do you need attachment support?[/quote]
For PDFs and image files, yes.
[quote]4) Should it be a viewer only, or have editing capabilities?[/quote]
Full editing support would be good, but a limited mode would be OK. For example: I would like to prepare an OmniOutliner file on my Mac and then use copies of this file for collecting data (e.g. adding text as a note or assigning a point value or setting a checkmark). This would resemble filling out a form.
[quote]5) What kind of syncing expectations do you have?[/QUOTE]
Synching is essential.

I am confident that you will produce a great OmniOutliner for the iPhone!

i am glad to see you are interested in what we want.
OO4 is prolly more important to me.
On my ipodtouch2ndgen 32g i use the ten dollar instaviz application to do some of what I do in graffle and outliner.
For simple lists I use bento.
I might switch-up if omni produced something because you're good, but it would have to be something special to be worth the bother.

Image (and possibly video) support and basic editing a must
 

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]
1) Do you need multiple columns of data, column types, or the column summary options?[/QUOTE]

Not really, but it might be nice to have the option, even if not on the same screen.

[QUOTE]2) Do you need formatting support? Or just plain text like OmniFocus for the iPhone.[/QUOTE]

Plain text would be OK, Again a nice to have but not necessary.

[QUOTE]3) Do you need attachment support?[/QUOTE]

How is this different to children? Yes I need hierarchy support (parents and children), and / or attachments.

[QUOTE]4) Should it be a viewer only, or have editing capabilities? If just a viewer only, how well does the Quick Look preview/DHTML export meet your needs? (Viewing the export on the iPhone that is) [/QUOTE]

Needs editing, even it just for notes fields.

[QUOTE]5) What kind of syncing expectations do you have? This would be one big reason why OmniOutliner 4 needs to be developed first as OO3 is not designed for merging synced changes. [/QUOTE]

Sync between iPhone app and desktop app. If either makes changes, the respective version is updated. It would be god to have changes highlighted as an option.

[QUOTE]If you have any other specific expectations for the app, please let us know too. Thanks for your feedback and support![/QUOTE]

I really would like image support and small video support if possible. Voice notes could be a nice option too.

I would pay aprox. $40 dollars for a full featured syncable iPhone app.

How I'd Use OmniOutliner for iPhone
 

Here are some ways I'd use an iPhone app for OmniOutliner:

1. As a to-do list... so I'd like to be able to check things off, move items around, view multiple columns, have the text wrap around and resized so it fits on one screen. Indenting and unindenting would be important as would sorting.

2. View and edit plans for a project (like my wedding)... in this case, I want an easy way to navigate around the rows and columns (headers should stay visible, potentially locking columns would help)

3. As a place to store ideas, thoughts... here's where hiding and expanding hierarchies would be really useful.

Formatting is not so important, although it would be nice to be able to bold stuff. Attachment support is not critical for me. Having viewing capability [B]without[/B] editing capability is not of much use to me. I might as well export as PDF and use a PDF viewer.

Syncing is crucial in that changes I make on the iPhone should automatically make it back to my original document. I would ideally like the syncing to happen when I click the "Sync" button in iTunes without having to go to another app even if I initially have to choose what files get synced.

Good luck!
Chris

Editing on the iPhone is crucial for me.
Sync with OO on Mac also.
The rest is less necessary, can be done later.
I agree that having the app sooner is better (even if it has less features).
I would also pay 30$.

You can probably reuse pretty much of the code of OmniFocus/iPhone (gui, db, sync...). I use both OF on iPhone and Mac and can't live without them. But an Outliner is still needed.

Thanks for your excellent work.

Syncing
 

I would really love ANY sort of a stripped down version of OmniOutliner for the iPhone, as long as it had syncing ability between the iPhone and the desktop OmniOutliner app.

I've been resisting moving over to OmniFocus because I find OmniFocus way too complex & structured for my needs... even the simpler program Things is STILL too complex & structured for my needs.

But OmniOutliner is perfect for all of my to-do lists! I've got dozens upon dozens of OmniOutliner files on my hard drive... and I would absolutely LOVE LOVE to sync these with my iPhone bidirectionally.

Currently, what I'm doing is emailing myself notes from my iPhone, and then manually copying-and-pasting those notes into OmniOutliner on my Mac. It would be awesome if it all just automatically synced!

Scotty321: you should really take a serious look at OmniFocus; it is NOT complex. Just give yourself 1 hour to evaluate it, you won't regret it... (provide you know a bit about GTD first). Good luck.

(but we still need OmniOutliner for the iPhone)

I typically take notes in outline form in my customer and business meetings. I'd use OmniOutliner for that but only if it would directly sync with my iPhone. I take notes in meetings on both the iPhone and my MBP.

I also use OmniFocus, but I'd like to be able to take a bullet in OO and designate it as an action item and then have it show up in OmniFocus both on the mac and on the iPhone.

J.

OmniOutliner for the iPhone
 

In designing OO for the iPhone, there are some capabilities that are trivial on the desktop platform that will need some thought for the mobile platform:

* OO4 will need some type of library support. This need not be as sophisticated as the iTunes/iPhoto libraries, it can be as simple as a structured set of directories, but I'll need a way to indicate which outlines I want synced to the iPhone, and a way to organize them.
* OO4 will need a way either manage a parent/child relationship between two outlines, or an easy way to make copies of an outline.

Let me explain:

I use OO3 and similar checklist programs for three different purposes:
1. To keep a list of recurring to-do items. For example, a travel checklist, a camping checklist, or a weekly grocery shopping list.
2. To keep an inventory of storage boxes. (although a note pad application is also suitable.)
3. To take notes during meetings, especially of follow-up actions.

All of these uses have tremendous mobile application potential.

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]
1) Do you need multiple columns of data, column types, or the column summary options?

2) Do you need formatting support? Or just plain text like OmniFocus for the iPhone.

3) Do you need attachment support?
[/QUOTE]
1. No - although, for more sophisticated inventory taking this may be invaluable
2. No.
3. No.

[QUOTE]
4) Should it be a viewer only, or have editing capabilities? If just a viewer only, how well does the Quick Look preview/DHTML export meet your needs? (Viewing the export on the iPhone that is)
[/QUOTE]

I really need to edit, at least I need to be able to move columns around, check off completed items, and insert/delete items as well. For to-do and inventory tracking, I'm only going to make changes to an existing outline. However, for brainstorming, I will be composing an outline directly on the iPhone.

[QUOTE]
5) What kind of syncing expectations do you have? This would be one big reason why OmniOutliner 4 needs to be developed first as OO3 is not designed for merging synced changes.

If you have any other specific expectations for the app, please let us know too. Thanks for your feedback and support![/QUOTE]

I am already an OmniFocus fanatic. The syncing using MobileMe works great for me. Something similar would work great for OO as well.

However, the different uses mentioned above, really have different sync requirements. For note taking and inventory, I need the mobile file and the desktop file to sync with each other: In a formal meeting, I'm likely to have my MacBook Pro with me, but would like to be able to use the iPhone to take notes in ad-hock or informal meetings. Inventory, is especially well suited for mobile use. If I were to add or remove something from a storage container, it would be great to be able to record the changes directly on the iPhone. Along these same lines, it's important to be able to search through the notes so that I may find out which container something is stored in.

For checklists, the sync requirement is a little different for I would like to keep a master parent checklist that is generally applicable, and make ad-hock copies of the list for each time I need to use the checklist. This can be thought of as the electronic equivalent to a pre-printed pad of paper where the pad as a whole is general, but each sheet may be customized for a specific event.

For example, say I am packing for a trip. I want to be able to have the iPhone with me as I am going through my closet and putting things into my suitcase. In doing so, I may find an item that I need just for this trip, so I'd like to be able to add it to the this-trip-only packing list and leave the master list alone. At other times, I may think of something to add to both lists, and would like to be able to do so.

On the desktop, this is trivial. Before packing, I can simply copy the parent outline file and work in the copy. Then as changes need to be made I'd edit the appropriate copy. This action needs to be just as trivial on the iPhone.

Functional
 

I love OmniOutliner, and as a designer/ art-director/ idea generator I love to put my ideas first into OmniOutliner. It's one of my key apps, because it's fast, smooth and let's me think purely.

But the iPhone has it's shortcomings, I really love it, but it works different than a computer or a laptop. It has a more basic way of working and we have different needswith an iPhone. And the point is that everyone needs a smooth workflow. With an iPhone or with a computer. Workflow is key.

I think we need an app just like OmniOutliner on the iPhone, but rather outlining in the broader sence. This because we are always on the go with an iPhone, ... even in our house or in the office. Sometimes we have no time to type in text (while driving? while walking?), so the spoken word, images, or even video can help us a lot. The concept then is rather adapted for a different use on a mobile phone.

So OmniOutliner text module for the iPhone may be much more basic than the computer version, but we must be able to 'outline' our ideas on the go! Because ideas are easily forgotten and sometimes gone for ever, ... and the last thing we want to have with OmniOutliner is a writers' block. When we are at home or at the office, we can finalize our file and type everything neatly.

Regards,
Peter

1) Multiple columns of data - I'd probably need more than just a single column. My current mobile outliner is BrainForest on the Palm, which only supports a single main column, but also has a 'start date' and 'due date' attached to each column, plus 'priority' and, of course, a checkbox (and notes). This allows it to be used as a to-do list or project manager; I'd like to be able to do something similar with OO. This is straying slightly into OF territory, but for managing complex projects an outliner that can make a separate document for each project may be more appropriate than trying to load many hundreds of hierarchically-structured tasks into a single OmniFocus database.

2) Formatting support or plain text - plain text is fine for me.

3) Attachment support - Attachments, no, but notes, yes.

4) Viewer only, or editing capabilities - editing is an absolute must for me.

5) Syncing - it would be nice if syncing could reconcile changes on different platforms, but really I'd be happy if I could edit documents on either platform and have the document readable/editable on the other. If the documents on the iPhone have to be in a 'simplified' format (and OO4 had a 'mobile document mode' where not all features are available), I could live with that too.

As I say, I currently use BrainForest as my mobile outliner. I use it for note-taking and recording ideas in a more or less structured form. I also use it for project planning, as a kind of hierarchical to-do list. I don't feel that I need much more than what BrainForest gives me on a mobile device, but I'd really like to be able to edit the outlines on the desktop in OmniOutliner, instead of the clunky BrainForest desktop client.

Incidentally, one feature that BrainForest has that I'd like to see in a future version of OO is completion percentages. Instead of a simple checkbox on each row to indicate done/not done, you can set a percentage value to indicate how much of the task represented by the row has been done. The completion percentages for parent rows update based on the values of their children. Something similar can be done with a number column and calculated summaries using 'Average Leaves' in OO, but BF displays everything as nice little bars; very easy to interpret.

BrainForest also supports a timeline view that shows start and due dates in a timeline, but that's a frill, whereas the 'completion percentage' is a very useful feature.

Incidentally, to say that I am eagerly awaiting an OmniGroup-made outliner on the iThing is a serious understatement. The absence of a convincing outliner is one of the few things that keeps me wedded to the Palm for the moment.

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]Sorry there hasn't been any news on this. We do greatly appreciate everyone's interest in this app. We have been strongly considering developing OmniOutliner for the iPhone and we may very well do so in the future. However, right now we are making OmniOutliner 4 our priority. [/quote]

Please do! I am totally in love with OmniOutliner and have wished for an iPhone app many, many times.

[quote]1) Do you need multiple columns of data, column types, or the column summary options?
2) Do you need formatting support? Or just plain text like OmniFocus for the iPhone.[/quote]

I'm including these together because I don't need them (although they'd both be nice to have if possible), but there are some stipulations to that. Plain text, no-column documents would be fine, as long as:
[list][*] the iPhone can read those outlines with rich text and columns, even if it can't edit them[*] the iPhone can create a copy of a rich-text, columned OmniOutliner file with no formatting and only information from the first column, and then edit the copy[*] and most importantly, when I'm creating and editing files on my Mac, I need to always know for sure whether the file I'm looking at is iPhone editable. I point to Evernote as counterexample - I am never sure when I'm creating a rich-text-free and thus iPhone-editable note until it's on my iPhone. It sucks. It's a huge pain. [/list]
Given those requirements, I'd be happy to buy an OmniOutliner iPhone app that has no columns and no rich text support.

[quote]3) Do you need attachment support?[/quote]

No.

[quote]4) Should it be a viewer only, or have editing capabilities? If just a viewer only, how well does the Quick Look preview/DHTML export meet your needs? (Viewing the export on the iPhone that is) [/quote]

Edit support is very important to me.

[quote]5) What kind of syncing expectations do you have? This would be one big reason why OmniOutliner 4 needs to be developed first as OO3 is not designed for merging synced changes. [/quote]

My preferred sync method would be like OmniFocus:
[list][*]Documents are stored on the cloud, but the app can use custom servers, not just iDisk default OmniGroup servers. [*]I don't want to have to manually upload and download specific documents from the server - I want all of them (or all in a subdirectory) to sync as soon as I open the app on my iPhone. Also, I want them to be cached so that I can use them in airplane mode. [/list]
Edit: forgot to mention, I myself do not need advanced conflict resolution within the outline. For me, it would be enough to see that there was a conflict with MyOutline.oo3, and have it create new files MyOutline.iPhone.oo3 and MyOutline.MacBookPro.oo3, or similar. I don't need it to try to open both versions of the outline and see if it can merge my changes. Not that that wouldn't be nice.

[quote]If you have any other specific expectations for the app, please let us know too. Thanks for your feedback and support![/QUOTE]

Not really an "expectation", but including OmniGraffle/OmniGraphSketch read-only support would be pretty rad.

I hope that you will [i]not[/i] make an app like ReaddleDocs or AirSharingPro or ezShare, where nothing is synced automatically. It's great that those apps can read so many different file formats, but thought-free replication of all of my OmniOutliner files (or a subset of them, like all in a certain directory or on a webdav share, etc) would be infinitely better.

OmniOutliner for the IPhone would be much appreciated
 

I have been using OmniOutliner since 2004, having migrated from Windows and EccoPro. My thoughts on the questions:
# 1: Yes, I would need multiple columns of data and all the column types. But the no of columns could be limited to 3. No need of summary options.
# 2: No need of formatting support, but being able to "bolden" the text would be fine though.
# 3: No need of attachment support
# 4: Editing capabilities would be a must
# 5: Must be syncable with my desktop, preferably via idisk, like Omnifocus.

Keep up the good work on applications!

Hi

Good to see that an iPhone OO app is in the pipeline (probably). Will have to stick with exporting to, and importing form, CarbonFin for now (not ideal as web addresses get messed up in the process).

Here's my thoughts:

1) One column is fine for my purposes.

2) I don't need formatting support (Plain text all the way for me ... well ... I guess bold, italic and underlining is useful).

3) Attachment support: yes, please (and why not: the iPhone natively supports viewing the most likely attachments).

4) It should definitely have editing capabilities. I often do my research in the most unlikely of places, and often when I don't have my laptop. Really this is the whole point: I want to be able to add to, and edit, my outlines on the go without the need for my laptop.

5) Two way syncing is essential. I need to be able to import changes into the desktop version and vice versa. Syncing via MobileMe (al la OmniFocus) works brilliantly, and I'd like to see a similar syncing arrangement).

Hope that helps. Best wishes, Moo

Any way to use a script to automate exporting Outliner content to Carbonfin? Just wondering. I don't know enough about Apple Script to know if this makes sense.

I really, really want an iphone version.

Jerry

What do you need to do to export an outline to Carbonfin? I know that it reads OPML files, which OO will produce. Perhaps if you describe the details of getting an outline to Carbonfin we can help...

[QUOTE=whpalmer4;65467]What do you need to do to export an outline to Carbonfin? I know that it reads OPML files, which OO will produce. Perhaps if you describe the details of getting an outline to Carbonfin we can help...[/QUOTE]

I've been doing this too. It's just an html upload from your computer to Carbonfin and back.

j.

Outliner for iPhone
 

1) Do you need multiple columns of data, column types, or the column summary options?

Multiple columns and column types are needed, but lack of summaries would not be a deal breaker.

2) Do you need formatting support? Or just plain text like OmniFocus for the iPhone.

Would it be possible for an outline to be viewed as plain text on the phone but styled on the Mac? That is, I only want to have to keep one version of a an outline that could go back and forth from phone to Mac and back. On the iPhone, I would miss styling, but could likely deal with the lack of it, but I have to have it on the Mac.

3) Do you need attachment support?

No

4) Should it be a viewer only, or have editing capabilities? If just a viewer only, how well does the Quick Look preview/DHTML export meet your needs? (Viewing the export on the iPhone that is)

Viewer-only is less than ideal, but will gladly accept it if that is all that can be managed. I really want editing on the phone though. OmniFocus on the iPhone is not an acceptable substitute for me. I don't use Outliner in the Focus method; keep lists in my own way. Having those lists in my pocket on the phone is my wish, especially if I can work with my lists on the phone.

5) What kind of syncing expectations do you have? This would be one big reason why OmniOutliner 4 needs to be developed first as OO3 is not designed for merging synced changes.

Syncing through direct attachment, ala iTunes and music, is all that I ask, but syncing through a MobileMe cloud would be keen.

Thank you for asking for feedback,
jkb

[QUOTE=jkb;65886]Syncing through direct attachment, ala iTunes and music, is all that I ask, but syncing through a MobileMe cloud would be keen.
[/QUOTE]
Apple currently doesn't give developers access to the USB connection, so you won't get the direct attachment sync unless Apple changes its mind.

Omni Version of CarbonFin
 

I want a way to process outlines on my iPod touch. I've been using CarbonFin Outliner quite extensively and it has a number of things I like. Apart from direct integration with OO, the main thing missing is OO's seamless "inline" editing. CFO is actually not as inconvenient as other outlining solutions in that it's relatively efficient at going from item to outline. But what I'd like is much closer to the text editor or word processor model in which it's possible to edit items within the whole outline, instead of having to go through a kind of dialog box. Here, the TaskPaper model is very interesting. I wish all outliners were like this (with convenient tools for moving outlines around).
Another important thing CFO lacks is copy-paste for multiple items. I wish I could not only duplicate an item with all its children but I even wish I could copy-paste content between CFO and other apps the way I keep doing so between OO and other apps.

But the main thing is that I want OO touch ASAP. So much so that I've been thinking about moving to OmniFocus. OF doesn't seem ideal, for me. But it's here now and it does sync with something in the App Store.

Oh lord please make something available for iPhone/Pod. Minimal everything, but sync is a must.

1) Do you need multiple columns of data, column types, or the column summary options?

Yes for multiple columns and column types. Summary options are a great feature but not killer one.

2) Do you need formatting support? Or just plain text like OmniFocus for the iPhone.

Formtatting.

3) Do you need attachment support?

Sometimes.

4) Should it be a viewer only, or have editing capabilities? If just a viewer only, how well does the Quick Look preview/DHTML export meet your needs? (Viewing the export on the iPhone that is)

Editing, If it's a viewer I don´t need it.

5) What kind of syncing expectations do you have? This would be one big reason why OmniOutliner 4 needs to be developed first as OO3 is not designed for merging synced changes.

If I create a Outline on the mac y want to keep working with in my iPhone. For example, I leave my data on MobileMe or in Dropbox, so I can open it everywhere, Why not on my iPhone? A sync web like the outliner of CarbonFin is the best idea I've seen until now. I can edit my outlines in the web or in the iphone and export then to OO. But OmniOutliner for the iPhone has to be an outliner in all the ways.

Come on! develop it! And we'll buy it!!!

First, I would buy a OO for iPhone in a heart beat!

Your questions:

1) Do you need multiple columns of data, column types, or the column summary options?

Yes this is an important feature, though if it only worked in a simplified form, this would be fine.

2) Do you need formatting support? Or just plain text like OmniFocus for the iPhone.

It of course is nice to have formatting, but I also realize the display is limited in space. It would be nice if at least formatting was preserved when synchronizing. In other words, I dont lose any formatting on rows I have not edited with synchronized documents.

3) Do you need attachment support?

No

4) Should it be a viewer only, or have editing capabilities? If just a viewer only, how well does the Quick Look preview/DHTML export meet your needs? (Viewing the export on the iPhone that is)

Editing would be important. I think one comprimise might be to have an editing mode and a view mode. Maybe the view mode supports some of the formatting but the editing mode be simple text.

5) What kind of syncing expectations do you have? This would be one big reason why OmniOutliner 4 needs to be developed first as OO3 is not designed for merging synced changes.

Apple does not make this easy for you. It is sad every application has to reinvent the wheel. Frankly, I would be satisfied with simple file synchronization between the device and the desktop. Row by row is nice, but may be over kill.

I agree with pault6 on pretty much everything.
But, i'd also be happy with a simple omni outliner to start with that syncs with my desktop client (webdav would be great).

I am an avid user of Omni products, both at work and at home, including OmniOutliner and OmniFocus. When OF arrived I found myself havering somewhat on which to use when, but this has now settled down. In accord with the point well made in another post, I have individual OO files located with other documents for a meeting or project, and use these for meeting or lecture notes, project options and so forth. I also use them extensively for lists (instead of Numbers), and keep a folder of aliases of these in my Dock.

So - my immediate need for iPhone from OO is simply to be able to view the files without converting them to PDF - QuickLook preview would be fine, along with support from file transfer tools such as FileMagnet.

Better support for columns would be a big plus for me in OO4, including fixing column positions, sorting by column and hiding selected columns - Numbers would be a good role model here.

Better integration between OO and OF is also high on my wish list - how about being able to call or view OO files from within OF. Linking OO files in a hierarchy would also be nice.

Food for though ...

Ian

[QUOTE=Ian Wells;68934]
Better integration between OO and OF is also high on my wish list - how about being able to call or view OO files from within OF.
[/QUOTE]

Is this in regards to the iPhone specifically? You can already Quick Look OO files attached to OF tasks on the desktop.

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]1) Do you need multiple columns of data, column types, or the column summary options?[/QUOTE]

I have used multiple columns (like check boxes, task owner, due date, etc), but the first column is the one that holds my main data. What might be cool is to enable columns like TweetDesk on the iPhone does, so I can view one column at a time but then swipe my finger left or right to scroll sideways through the columns. Nice.

If you do that, though, you might want some sort of row shading so your eye can follow the row across columns as the columns slide across the screen.

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]2) Do you need formatting support? Or just plain text like OmniFocus for the iPhone.[/QUOTE]

I would prefer formatting, but am willing to lose it as long as I can sync between the desktop and iPhone versions without losing the desktop formatting. Color carries information, so you can enhance the meaning of data by including it.

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]3) Do you need attachment support?[/QUOTE]

I think again, this would be nice, but I'm willing to sacrifice it as long as syncing doesn't strip it from the "official" desktop file.

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]4) Should it be a viewer only, or have editing capabilities? If just a viewer only, how well does the Quick Look preview/DHTML export meet your needs? (Viewing the export on the iPhone that is)[/QUOTE]

Personally, I'd be much less interested in an iPhone app if it was view-only. The whole purpose of the app for me is being able to work when I'm out and about and find myself with a small block of free time.

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]5) What kind of syncing expectations do you have? This would be one big reason why OmniOutliner 4 needs to be developed first as OO3 is not designed for merging synced changes.[/QUOTE]

I hope it will be able to sync just like OF syncs my desktop and iPhone files. It's odd to me that Apple won't let you sync directly via the USB cable, but maybe there's a good tech reason I just don't know. Until that happens, I hope I can synch over WiFi. That's been working well for me! The only thing better would be if I knew how to set it up so I could sync from anywhere (without using a me.com account).

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]If you have any other specific expectations for the app, please let us know too. Thanks for your feedback and support![/QUOTE]

I'm so happy with OO3's abilities I can't imagine what you'll do in OO4. I guess I'd love it if OO4's abilities get added to the app as well. If I do think of something missing in OO, I'll add it here too.

Thanks guys!

Keith

I now own several outliners and mindmappers for the iPhone.

Of these, CarbonFin Outliner is the best. It sinks to a website but there is no sync to the Mac. the others are basically junk.

If you could come up with OO on the mac AND have it sync with the Mac version, it would be a serious differentiator.

J.

My answers
 

1) I do not need multiple columns of data, column types, or the column summary options. Simple, basic, one-column outline functionality would suffice.

2) All I need is plain text, like OF for iphone. Don't need formatting support.

3) I do not need attachment support.

4) It needs to have editing capabilities, albeit simple ones. I would not mind the ability to view complex multi-column outlines synced with my desktop, but I think complex editing capabilities would be overreaching. Frankly, and with all due respect, I find the notion of a "fully functional version of OO for the iPhone complete with all the formatting and column options present in the full version" to be an absurd notion, and I think developing such an overly ambitious application would be a fool's errand.

5) Some means of syncing is important. Doesn't need to be overly fancy.

In summary, I am much more interested in a simple, basic, lightweight outliner with modest features that will arrive before I succumb to old age than I am in an ambitious version that would allow me to pretend that my iphone is a laptop. I have accepted that it is not. I just want to be able to outline on my phone. Now!

1) Do you need multiple columns of data, column types, or the column summary options?

Multiple columns and column types are important. Summary options aren't important for me.

2) Do you need formatting support? Or just plain text like OmniFocus for the iPhone.

Formatting is not important for me -- just like OF for iPhone.

3) Do you need attachment support?

Not critical.

4) Should it be a viewer only, or have editing capabilities? If just a viewer only, how well does the Quick Look preview/DHTML export meet your needs? (Viewing the export on the iPhone that is)

Editing is very important. I am using my iPhone much like I've used a laptop and I'm mobile -- need to add items, change items, delete items, move and re-order items. Don't need to add new columns or delete columns -- just put data in them and view the data in the columns.

5) What kind of syncing expectations do you have? This would be one big reason why OmniOutliner 4 needs to be developed first as OO3 is not designed for merging synced changes.

Definitely need syncing, just like Omni Focus. Need to be able to access and edit and sync between my iMac, iPhone, MacBook and tablet when available -- mobile and virtual.

My answers
 

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]
1) Do you need multiple columns of data, column types, or the column summary options?[/QUOTE]
I'd be happy with just one column. I rarely need more than one, and couldn't see it would be easy to use on the current iPhone screen

[QUOTE]2) Do you need formatting support? Or just plain text like OmniFocus for the iPhone.[/QUOTE]
Happy to use plain text on the iPhone for viewing editing etc, but would have to retain the formatting set on the computer.

[QUOTE]3) Do you need attachment support?[/QUOTE]
No, but again, wouldn't want it to loose anything that it has already had connected, and links should be preserved (ie to websites etc)

[QUOTE]4) Should it be a viewer only, or have editing capabilities? If just a viewer only, how well does the Quick Look preview/DHTML export meet your needs? (Viewing the export on the iPhone that is)[/QUOTE]
No, it would have to have editing to be any use to me.

[QUOTE]5) What kind of syncing expectations do you have? This would be one big reason why OmniOutliner 4 needs to be developed first as OO3 is not designed for merging synced changes.[/QUOTE]

Whole file sync... It could theoretically just work from a shared location / mobileme idisk etc for my use. This is different to omnifocus, but I wouldn't anticipate using the iPhone when I could use the computer for omnioutliner, whereas I use both simultaneously for OF.


[QUOTE]If you have any other specific expectations for the app, please let us know too. Thanks for your feedback and support![/QUOTE]

No, I think you guys have a great sense of what people want.

cheers

Ben

Now that this thread is almost a year old, I'm wondering how close we might be to seeing OO for the iPhone and Touch.

My needs are simple ... grocery lists, lists of books I'm looking for at used bookstores, and the like. I use OmniFocus for projects and task lists but don't want to clutter it with errand lists.

Export from OOP to OPML, then import into CarbonFin, then sync with iPod Touch ... works but everytime I do it I get grumpy that you guys haven't given us the magic app for this. :) Please please please! :)

Yeah, I doubt anything's going to happen with OO and iPod touch.... :-(

As mentioned in the original post, OmniOutliner 4 is coming first. OO on the iPhone/Touch is still very much a possibility.

OO on the larger Apple tablet (iSlate, or whatever it will be called today) would certainly be appealing.

Edit: iPad seems to be the name, Fujitsu willing :-)

[COLOR="White"]--[/COLOR]

Bring it to the iPad!
 

I use OO probably 10 hours a day, and rely on it for my job. I really hope OG brings it to the iPad. I already own OF on my Mac and iPhone, and OO on my Mac. I would have NO problem paying for OO on the iPad. Just name the price, I'm there.

iPad for taking notes
 

While I use and like OO on my Mac, I am thinking a bit differently for the iPad, though that would be a great start for notes to associate with a project.

What about a note taking app, which allows you to take handwritten notes with a stylus, inside of the OF application. In other words, while at a meeting, bring up a new note page, assign it to a project and context, give it a title (think task), then open the note and enter handwritten notes. Then when you return to your desk, select any tasks from your notes for entry as individual tasks in the project. Doesn't even have to recognize handwriting. My notes would be saved with the project for every meeting, and when I have time, I can develop tasks from those notes in the usual manner.

If I had this capability, I would purchase an iPad just to use for meeting notes. Of course having my Google Calendar, corporate email, contact lists, etc. on a larger screen at the meeting would be a real bonus. Food for thought, John

Details on how you use OO
 

@santra - I'd be interested in hearing all the things you do with OO every day. While I appreciate it as an outliner, I haven't been able to really break away from using Word. Can you elaborate? Thanks, John

[QUOTE=santra;72419]I use OO probably 10 hours a day, and rely on it for my job. I really hope OG brings it to the iPad. I already own OF on my Mac and iPhone, and OO on my Mac. I would have NO problem paying for OO on the iPad. Just name the price, I'm there.[/QUOTE]

i love this program. i would use it nearly every day at work. but new job, in the wintel world. so no more. put this on the iPad. then i could use it anywhere i go (don't need a second laptop, even though the one i have is wintel). i can see the limitations this program would have on the iphone, but there's a new tool in town!

iPad Workflow
 

Got to think about how the iPad will fit in my workflow and quickly got think about OO. Seems like I'm not the only one. OO is a "natural," on the iPad.
Like others, I partly see it as a companion tool. Taking notes in OO (not necessarily handwritten) would help. Synching those notes to OO Mac would work well. This might also work on the iPhone and iPod touch. Been using CarbonFin Outliner and ToodleDo-aware apps for just this purpose.
But there's more. How about iWork? Seems like the iPhone OS 3.2 SDK has space for sharing documents between apps. OO exports to Keynote on the Mac. The same feature would be fantastic on iPad.

Oh God please make some kind of OO iPad document!

The one thing holding me back from wanting an iPad on Day One is knowing that I'm still going to have to schlep my laptop around because of a few key apps that won't be on it (OmniOutline being tops on my list).

An OO app for the iPad would be - for me - far more valuable than an OO app for the iPhone. It's hard for me to imagine my using OO on an iPhone for composing anything ... but on an iPad? Absolutely. And every day.

So please consider this a strong vote for OO for the iPad.

[QUOTE=DerekM;52971]
1) Do you need multiple columns of data, column types, or the column summary options?

2) Do you need formatting support? Or just plain text like OmniFocus for the iPhone.

3) Do you need attachment support?

4) Should it be a viewer only, or have editing capabilities? If just a viewer only, how well does the Quick Look preview/DHTML export meet your needs? (Viewing the export on the iPhone that is)

5) What kind of syncing expectations do you have? This would be one big reason why OmniOutliner 4 needs to be developed first as OO3 is not designed for merging synced changes.
[/QUOTE]

1. I would like to have multiple columns, different column types, and summary rows.
2. Plain text is fine for me; formatting ability would be a nice to have.
3. I don't need attachment support.
4. I would definitely want editing capabilities. I want to be able to create a hierarchical outline on my iPod Touch.
5. I would want to be able to sync with or transfer to and from my desktop computer without going through email or through a third party website (even Omni's).

In addition, I would like to be able to have more than one outline.

I love OO but ...
 

I'm thinking of just converting most of my lists into Bento files, because synching for iphone is so easy.

Another option I'm exploring is TaskPaper from Hogbay Software. (interesting because I used Hogbay notebook before I discovered Omni Outliner) They have a version for desktop and iphone.

At some point I need to be able to use my lists and notes on my phone, and the work arounds are a Pain in the .... neck.

And don't forget the new Numbers application for iPad has a specific data-entry mode that shows a typical spreadsheet in a data-entry form view for easy entry

OK, I just have to say: Carbon Fin Outliner Online just doesn't cut. Awful, awful UI.

[QUOTE=jbkendrick;72431]@santra - I'd be interested in hearing all the things you do with OO every day. While I appreciate it as an outliner, I haven't been able to really break away from using Word. Can you elaborate? Thanks, John[/QUOTE]

I have used PIMs (personal information managers) since the beautiful, ground-breaking, never-to-be topped, Ecco Pro, only to be seconded by InfoSelect or Bonsai. Ecco Pro was so incredible that it had aliasing (cloned items that were exact pointers, much like DEVONthink's "replicated" items, which are exact clones directly linked).

For years and years, Bonsai, made by Natara, was my workhorse, running on my Toshiba tablet and synced to my Palm. I used it for everything. I had (I think) at least 100 outlines.

Then I switched to a Mac. OmniOutliner is the best replacement I've found so far. There is NOTHING like a flexible, hierarchical outliner.

I only wish that OG had ported OO to the web and/or the iPhone and/or added aliasing a long time ago.

I use OO religiously for work—much better than my IT's firms KB.

Here's a sample of my notes from my Software outline, this being part of what I track and document re OmniOutliner:

- How tos:
* How to convert from Bonsai
* How to ATTACH a file
* How to SET the Outline's DEFAULT FONT
* How to TURN OFF RULER
- Number selected items
* Number a level
* Get rid of bullets in entire document
- Remove direct formatting
* How to COLLAPSE a GRAPHIC (attached link to file)
* How to PASTE items to OF and have it turn into tasks on the fly
automatically

I love OmniOutliner. Not quite as good as Bonsai or Ecco Pro, but what can you do.

[QUOTE=Joe H;73988]I'm thinking of just converting most of my lists into Bento files, because synching for iphone is so easy.

Another option I'm exploring is TaskPaper from Hogbay Software. (interesting because I used Hogbay notebook before I discovered Omni Outliner) They have a version for desktop and iphone.

At some point I need to be able to use my lists and notes on my phone, and the work arounds are a Pain in the .... neck.[/QUOTE]

Right now, I'd have to say that the elegantly simple Taskpaper is one of the best alternatives that syncs from mac to iPhone.

J.

I can see that this thread has been spun for more than a year, but it should not end up with a Taskpaper recommendation:

Yes, a simple outliner for the iphone would be fantastic! I use Carbonfin's today and I would love to see an Omni app with some integration with both Omnifocus and Omnioutliner. Sending sections into straight into Omnifocus on the phone (as well as desktop) would be marvellous.
One column plus media attachments and notes would suffice mostly for my use on the phone, but adding columns for particularly calculations and dates is an interesting thought.
Sync on desktop could be something you set for each file/document.

Hope someone in Omni not to busy with the iPad is still subscribing to this... I respect the decision to focus on the iPad, but the phone is really my mobile device where I need a simple way to collect data and arrange them swiftly.

[QUOTE=Arild;76613]I can see that this thread has been spun for more than a year, but it should not end up with a Taskpaper recommendation:

Yes, a simple outliner for the iphone would be fantastic!
Sync on desktop could be something you set for each file/document.

Hope someone in Omni not to busy with the iPad is still subscribing to this... I respect the decision to focus on the iPad, but the phone is really my mobile device where I need a simple way to collect data and arrange them swiftly.[/QUOTE]

OmniFocus is a quite workable, not perfect but workable solution as an outliner for now. It syncs between my Mac, iPod touch and iPad, so at least I needn't jump through hoops or use some awful "cloud" app. Unless something is capable of syncing between all my devices, I won't use it.

I hope Omni IS focussing on the iPad AND churning out all the apps they've listed (OmniFocus being first in line after OmniGraffle). OmniFocus on the Mac DOES need a lot of GUI tuning, so hopefully they're hard at work on that as well.

Luckily it looks as though Apple has found a reasonable, if clunky, solution for syncing document-centric apps (iWork) vs. database-centric apps (OF), so the doc-centric OmniOutliner should be less painful to build for the iPad/iPhone.

For Omni, I think it's important that they build their apps for BOTH the iPhone/iPod touch and iPad. The iPad truly is a game changer in many respects (for those who GET IT), so ensuring that their apps work seamlessly between Mac OS X and iOS (an end-to-end solution) is in everyone's best interest.

Sad and disappointed in OMNI
 

Message for DerekM -- the Moderator,

I have been a LONG time customer of The Omni Group products -- for both the mac and iPhone. I was the very first person to respond to this thread back on 1.1.09 -- over 16 months ago...and have waited patiently ever since.

But now I must be honest and say that I am VERY disappointed in Omni because nothing has happened yet for OO and the iPhone. OO for the iPhone appears to be nothing more than a vapor-app. The iPad has become the apple of your eye even though it has a far, far fewer customer base than the iPhone.

By asking the original question and getting an overwhelmingly positive response from long-time users, Omni encouraged and set the expectation of something to come...and so we waited and waited and waited. But by NOT fulfilling the very expectations that you encouraged, you damaged your own reputation (which to this point has been very positive for me) and proven yourselves to be untrustworthy.

On Omni's "About Us" page you claim to want to be a "different sort of company", provide "gold-standard customer support", and "treating our customers with respect" -- the agonizing delay in getting OO for the iPhone suggests otherwise.

My encouragement to Omni -- don't set expectations if you can't fulfill them. Learn to manage expectations better of your loyal customers instead of chasing new ones.

Please know that I still hope to be proven wrong and that OO for iPhone comes out very soon, but unless something changes soon, I will forever be jaded in my view of The Omni Group.

I second Santra's appraisal of Ecco Pro as the best ever. And of OmniOutliner as the best Mac outliner. Ecco's ability to let you see your information in different ways is not unlike OmniFocus, but was even more powerful.

OO could go a long way if only it would let us filter by multiple criteria. Shouldn't be that hard to implement.

[QUOTE=wpitman;76708]

But now I must be honest and say that I am VERY disappointed in Omni because nothing has happened yet for OO and the iPhone. OO for the iPhone appears to be nothing more than a vapor-app. The iPad has become the apple of your eye even though it has a far, far fewer customer base than the iPhone.

By asking the original question and getting an overwhelmingly positive response from long-time users, Omni encouraged and set the expectation of something to come...and so we waited and waited and waited. But by NOT fulfilling the very expectations that you encouraged, you damaged your own reputation (which to this point has been very positive for me) and proven yourselves to be untrustworthy.

[/QUOTE]
I think you need to go read the original post again, and this time read what it actually says instead of what you want it to say! No promise was made to ever deliver OmniOutliner for iPhone. We were asked for input on what features would be needed to make it useful, should it be developed. I personally would love OmniOutliner on my iPod or iPad, even just a minimal version that would let me view documents and check off lists, and have even contemplated investing the effort to write my own application to do so, so I think I can safely be considered an interested party. As much as I would like to see such an app, I don't feel at all that Omni has been stringing me along or promising something they have no plans to deliver, and if you honestly feel they have done so, I would like to know where they did so, so that I can ask them why they haven't delivered yet!

For the rest of us
 

Disclaimer ;-) Resources are always limited - and with so many great Software products and a Hardware playground that grows at Apple's pace, it's sure a difficult task to prioritize. From the forum discussions it is obvious that Omni invests a lot of careful considerations behind all this. (Most of which users like I can't even imagine. I'm not even a programmer - I'm only a product manager in an all different industry.)

Now...

That new Apple toy thing is sure great. But although we are all thrilled with the iPad, the vast majority of us still use those good old Macs and iPhones and most likely the rough ratio will remain for a while still.

Hence I'd expect Omni's resource priority to be with Mac/iPhone/iPod. At least to value your installed base (OO sure being one of your best sellers). And at least for basic functionality.

Here's my view of "basic":

1 (multiple columns): NOT in a 1.o Version
2 (formatting): NOT in a 1.o Version
3 (attachments): NOT in a 1.o Version

4 (editing): YES - but only for the level of information it contains (see 1-3)
5 (syncing): YES.

I understand that OO (Mac) 4.o is key to any kind of syncing - so this is clearly where I would like to hear about and see progress first.

In summary I'd suggest to hand out an OO (iPhone) Alpha with the above minimal feature set in parallel to your OO 4.o development as soon as the progress there allows for something that meets Omni's Alpha standards.

Keep up the good work, friends. Please just don't get all distracted by that new shiny, touchy plaything. It's sure the future for some of us (myself included at some point in time, I guess). But there's sheer needs for the present from the rest of us as well. "Present" meaning since the iPhone has been launched...

Cheers, Chris

As an iPad owner for nearly two months at this point, and a heavy user of OmniFocus on the iPod for more than a year, my take on the right course of action is a bit different, I'm afraid. I very much would like the ability to simply view existing OO files on my iPod or iPad, but by comparison to what an iPad version of OO should be like (based on my experience with OmniGraffle on the iPad), an iPhone version that attempts to do much more than be a simple text viewer is going to be nearly as frustrating as an iPhone version of OmniGraffle, and will divert resources away from the OO projects which will bring in substantial revenue, namely OO 4.0 for the desktop and the iPad. I would probably still buy a scaled down OO for iPod/iPhone, even with a real iPad app already in hand, but I think it would be a mistake to not do the iPad app first. The current customers who haven't found anything else yet are still likely to be there, but allowing all-new iPad customers to be snatched up by some other vendor means losing not only the OO iPad app sale, but likely any sale of other Omni products.

my wishes for a first version of OO for iPhone:

1) no

2) the simple outline function is the most important, bold would be great

3) maybe not for the first version, but necessary later

4) editable is very very important for me. Much more than formattings and attachments

5) my idea is similar to the OmniFocus synchronization of saving it on the iDisk. Instead of one file with everything inside, a folder with all documents so that each document can be used independently (e. g. to take a file and send it by mail to anybody else) but inside OO to get a list of all documents inside the folder to have it in one place and open it simple and fast.

I've owned OmniFocus for a few months, and have been playing the OmniOutliner for about a week (trial version). As an iPhone user, I find the ability to have access to certain applications on both the Mac and iPhone to be indispensable, and OmniOutliner is one such application. In other words, if I don't feel confident that I will have OO for the iPhone, I would end up using something else (I found myself making outlines within OmniFocus...).

I absolutely do not expect the Mac and iPhone functionality to be the same (it is not the same with OF, and it's perfectly fine). Especially with the iPhone limited screen real estate, I expect any kind of text editing to be as simple (and useable) as possible.

So, all I would expect from an iPhone version of OO would be:

1. View files I create on the Mac
2. Basic editing - changing text, adding removing columns
3. Basic file creation - adding and removing columns, selecting column types (things like colors and font format change is not necessary)
4. Ability to sync with the files I create on the Mac.

Currently have Omnifocus for Mac and Iphone, also Omnioutliner 3...
I've been using Omnifocus on the iphone as my outliner, because it can sync... :)
A copy paste from omnifocus (Mac) to outliner would do for now as well. Pretty pleeease.

1) nice but not essential.

2) no.

3) no.

4) no. Full editing please.

5) over wi-fi, like docs togo.

I'm sure OO for iPhone would outsell OO iPad. I love the iPad, but I don't carry it everywhere with me like I do my iPhone. Same reason I have OF for iPhone but not iPad.

R.i.p. Oo
 

I was the first to post to this thread about my desire and NEED for OO for the iPhone. I completely understand the need of Omni may not be the same as my need AND I have been a long time supporter of Omni -- buying and using every product available. In the past I've found Omni to be a quality company with a quick turnaround time in software development. But after 21 months of teasing us with OO for the iPhone, I now consider this product as vaporware. I have on several occasions emailed my desire for OO in addition to this forum and not once has Omni replied -- even to say they can't comment. Sad to say, but I doubt that OO for the iPhone will ever see the light of day and even if it does, Omni has lost the competitive advantage in the outliner software as others have quickly filled the gap. Most of the high end users have already committed to other software (certainly not as good as OO for the Mac) and now it may be too late to transfer back to our beloved OO. R.I.P. OO for iPhone :(

[QUOTE=wpitman;86562]But after 21 months of teasing us with OO for the iPhone, I now consider this product as vaporware. [/QUOTE]

What product? I haven't seen anyone from Omni *ever* say that they are doing OO for the iPhone, or even that they are definitely going to do it in the future. Look at Derek's words in the opening post in this thread:

[quote=DerekM]
We have been strongly considering developing OmniOutliner for the iPhone and we may very well do so in the future.
[/quote]

They considered it when they started developing for the iPhone (they would have been fools not to), and as best I can tell, decided that their efforts were better spent on OO4 due to the limitations of the small screen. When the iPad came along, they suddenly had a platform not nearly so limiting, and they decided that OO for the iPad was something worth doing (in addition to OO4) and are doing so. OO for the iPhone would be yet another UX design, and Ken posted on the blog the other day that that's the hard part, and they don't have any plans to do OO for iPhone before all the promised iPad applications have shipped (one of which they haven't really started), at which point they may consider it. You can read his post (and comments) here: [url]http://www.omnigroup.com/blog/entry/ipad_or_bust_3_down_2_to_go[/url]

I'm no marketing expert, but the usual drill with vaporware marketing seems to be to repeatedly say "we're building X, it's going to be great, should be here real soon", not to repeatedly say "we're too busy with Y and Z to do that now, but maybe later when we are done with Y and Z..." Maybe Omni just doesn't understand how to do vaporware properly :-)