styles
 

i find the new styling system completely bewildering. :confused::(

how do i select all the rows at a particular level and decide on the style attributes for that level - the way i do with oo3?

Sorry we don't have any documentation yet! OmniOutliner 4 has adopted the style method we implemented with the iPad version. The system used in OO3 that allowed the "level X rows" style involved way too many additional option that caused much confusion.

Everything works off of named styles now. If you select a named style in the sidebar and look at the Style inspector, you'll see three options at the bottom: [I]Include styles[/I], [I]Style children as[/I], [I]Style next row as[/I].

[I]Include styles[/I] allows you to basically make a named style group, you can make one named style inherit the attributes of as many other named styles as you want.

[I]Style children as[/I] is the option you're interested in here. This is how you can get the same automatic level styling. Create a named style for each row level you want, you can even name them "Level x rows". Then select your level 1 row style and set the [I]Style children as[/I] to your level 2 row style. Continue this chain for as many levels as you want. Once that is done, in the document inspector set the [I]Top-level row style[/I] value to your level 1 row style. This will apply that named style to all existing and future level 1 rows made in that file. You now have automatic level styling for your document.

[I]Style next row as[/I] can be used to alternating row styles. If you set up two named styles that set each other for this value, it will alternate between the two as you make new row after each one. This could be used for say a Q&A list or such.

We're planning to create placeholder named styles pre-configured to do level styling in the default template so you can essentially use them like the option in OmniOutliner 3.

Let me know if you have any questions about this. Thanks!

thanks very much Derek, for your reply. excellent clarifications. i realise that this is a majorly different approach to the one i'm used to, and i guess i'll have to get to grips with it by playing.

i'm not 100% convinced yet that the new system will be any less confusing than the old, but that's perhaps because of its unfamiliarity at the moment.

We just added empty named styles for levels 1-5 to the default template. So, unless you've modified the template yourself, after you update any new documents should have these already. You can simply select them in the sidebar and use them like you did in OO3. You'll have to manually add additional styles to get beyond level 5 though.

i appreciate this - i was so confused before - didn't know where to start. in the documentation - when it comes out, i think it may be necessary to advise people used to OO3 that how styles are used in v.4 involves an entirely new approach. i was getting quite frustrated .

I'm glad you posted this. . . . I am a long time OO users and I still can't figure it out! I'm using (159.0.182914)

My outline looks like this

My first level 1
A level 2
A level 2
My second level 1
A level 2
A level 2

I see Heading 1, Heading 2, etc in the side bar. Are headings the same as levels?

I want all first level items to have the same styling. I can't figure it out.


Edit: After spending :10 minutes, I understand how the styling works. However, I don't know how to change existing text.

In particular, how do I select everything at a particular level?

Thanks,
Steve

I don't know how you easily select everything at a given level in a complex document (or on the iPad). Incentive to build it correctly the first time? :)

Once you have selected everything, though, you should (in theory) be able to use the checkboxes at lower left to style it all the same. I notice that when I try to put this theory to the test, I am not always able to remove styles that have been applied.

I'm not sure how to build a document incorrectly, but I am satisfied now that I have figured out how to change all level 1 or level 2 at once. Sometimes you decide that you want to change a style. I opened a long and complex document that I had created in oo2 and I had no problem changing all items of a particular level.

Row Numbering with the new Styles
 

I can't figure out how to include row numbering as a style. Everytime I select a syle in the sidebar, I can modify font size, row spacing, etc., but all the row numbering options are grayed out.

Is this a bug? Or am I overlooking something?

Bryan

[QUOTE=brygoose;123059]I can't figure out how to include row numbering as a style. Everytime I select a syle in the sidebar, I can modify font size, row spacing, etc., but all the row numbering options are grayed out.

Is this a bug? Or am I overlooking something?

Bryan[/QUOTE]

What exactly have you tried selecting in the sidebar? The row numbering option will be disabled if you select a column style. But for any named style, or the Whole Document style, it should be available.

Heading 1, Heading 2 in the Sidebar
 

I see Heading 1, Heading 2, etc in the side bar. Are headings the same as levels?

[QUOTE=garyturner;123149]I see Heading 1, Heading 2, etc in the side bar. Are headings the same as levels?[/QUOTE]

No, if you scroll down the list you should see the level styles, unless that file was made before we modified the template. The heading styles are not set up to be automatically applied to anything. You can change them to be automatically applied but they are just there as preset styles that you may want to use for styling heading rows.

The level styles are configured to be automatically applied to their corresponding rows but do not contain any style attributes so you can style your levels how you see fit.

If you don't see the level styles at the end of the list on new document either, then you likely modified the default template. You can reset that by open the OmniOutliner Preferences and clicking the Reset button in the bottom left corner of the General tab.

Row numbering can continue where previous numbering left off?
 

Derek, thanks for the quick response. Don't know why I was so dim to not see that.

As for row numbers: is there any plans for a setting (or does a feature already exist) that allows one to continue the row numbering where it previously left off instead of starting from 1. all the time?

Example: I have an outline which is a set of discussion questions which are numbered now automatically via Level 2 styling. I want to categorize these questions via Level 1 rows that give the category name. However, when adding a new Level 1 row, the Level 2 rows beneath all automatically start their numbering from number 1. again. Is there are way to change this?

Thanks!

Bryan

Control of how much to indent children
 

Is there any plans to add a mechanism whereby we can control how much child rows are indented? and based on style as well?

This is a feature in OO3 that I'd love to see added to OO4.

Bryan

[QUOTE=brygoose;123167]
As for row numbers: is there any plans for a setting (or does a feature already exist) that allows one to continue the row numbering where it previously left off instead of starting from 1. all the time?[/QUOTE]

That is not a feature we'll be adding for 4.0, but we are aware of the desire for it.

[QUOTE=brygoose;123167]
Is there any plans to add a mechanism whereby we can control how much child rows are indented? and based on style as well?
[/QUOTE]

The options in OO4 are whether or not to indent the children of a given row (set indent to 0) and then setting the indent value for the whole document.

In the Style inspector there is a control for [I]Indent children Yes/No[/I]. That can be assigned to named styles. In the Document inspector there is a control for [I]Indent child rows[/I] which is the value used whenever a child row is set to indent.

Are you wanting to have a level of control over the indent value on a per parent basis beyond this?

Yes, it would be useful to be able to set the indent amount on a level-by-level or style-by-style basis.

Thanks!

Bryan, we're interested to know what type of documents you are creating that you would make use of that level of control. You can [URL="mailto:omnioutliner@omnigroup.com"]email[/URL] us if you would rather not share such details on the forums. Thanks!

What about checkboxes. Can I a checkbox set on a particular row on the basis of style? For example, I want to create a style called "Action Item" and have the check box on only for those items that have that style applied.

What I see is that the checkbox selection in the Column part of the inspector is grayed out.

[QUOTE=JohnJ80;123867]What about checkboxes. Can I a checkbox set on a particular row on the basis of style? For example, I want to create a style called "Action Item" and have the check box on only for those items that have that style applied.

What I see is that the checkbox selection in the Column part of the inspector is grayed out.[/QUOTE]

That is not currently possible. You can however set the status of a row's checkbox to 'none' so it isn't visible. This can not be set as a style however, so you would need to manually set it. This option is under Edit > Set Status.

[QUOTE=DerekM;123875]That is not currently possible. You can however set the status of a row's checkbox to 'none' so it isn't visible. This can not be set as a style however, so you would need to manually set it. This option is under Edit > Set Status.[/QUOTE]

Is that in the plan to make it settable as a style just like font and color etc..?

J.

[QUOTE=JohnJ80;123882]Is that in the plan to make it settable as a style just like font and color etc..?

J.[/QUOTE]

It is not planned for 4.0.

The level styles used in OmniOutliner 3 have been added back into OmniOutliner 4. Based on user feedback and our own exploration, we decided it was best to restore these. We have not removed any functionality from named styles themselves though and existing files will continue to function the same way. However, your existing files will likely have two sets of "level styles" now. The named styles labeled Level 1-5, and "Level X rows" right underneath the Whole Document style.

If you were using the named styles I would recommend switching to using the real level styles instead. Unfortunately, there is not an easy way to make this transition at the moment. As always, if you need any help with this, feel free to contact [URL="mailto:omnioutliner@omnigroup.com"]support[/URL].

Thank you for sending in your feedback!

Thanks for this switch. Compared to OO3, this has been very challenging.

Is there any way to select all instances of a particular level?

Thanks!

Not without scripting. What are you trying to do?

I am trying to fix my formatting.

In OO3, I could make a quick outline say 3 levels deep and not worry about formatting. Later, I could "select all level two" rows and change the formatting or "select all level three" rows to change the formatting.

I'm playing now and it doesn't look like I need to select all of a particular level to change the formatting.

Yeah, you can just modify the row level styles. It is true in OO3 that the rows appeared selected when you clicked on a row level, but that was part of the style matrix UI which has been removed, and not necessary for formatting.

I'm glad you added this functionality back into OO4.

Two comments/questions:
1. If you have a named style and a level style is also applied is there a hierarchy or priority to those? Can you cancel either/or completely?

2. Can you add the ability to have or not have a checkbox into the style instead of all or nothing checkboxes?

J.

[QUOTE=JohnJ80;124296]
1. If you have a named style and a level style is also applied is there a hierarchy or priority to those? Can you cancel either/or completely?[/QUOTE]

Basically, anything that's more specific has higher priority. Level styles apply to all rows of that level no matter what. Named styles are applied to individual rows so they are more specific. If you want to cancel the named style, you would just remove it from the row. You can not opt out of the level style aside from applying styles to the row that contradict the level style.

[QUOTE=JohnJ80;124296]
2. Can you add the ability to have or not have a checkbox into the style instead of all or nothing checkboxes?[/QUOTE]

With the current system, no. You can set the status of a row to 'none' though, through Edit -> Set Status.

[QUOTE=DerekM;124324]Basically, anything that's more specific has higher priority. Level styles apply to all rows of that level no matter what. Named styles are applied to individual rows so they are more specific. If you want to cancel the named style, you would just remove it from the row. You can not opt out of the level style aside from applying styles to the row that contradict the level style.



With the current system, no. You can set the status of a row to 'none' though, through Edit -> Set Status.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, let me play with that a bit. On the first point -

If I define, say, a style for all level one rows that is bold and then I create another named style that is not bold and apply it, what does it look like? So is it that the last style applied is the one that sticks?

I just tested this out and it seems really inconsistent to me and results in a sort of screwed up style after you make a number or changes. It would seem that there ought to be some sort of hierarchy as to what gets applied where and when.


J.

Can you give me a specific example please? Might be easier to move this to [URL="mailto:omnioutliner@omnigroup.com"]email[/URL] so we can send files back and forth. The problem with your bold example is that regular font weight (non-bold) can not be applied to a named style. This is because default style attributes can not be applied to named styles, and this is a whole separate issue. If it was possible, the result would be non-bold.

An example that will work is:
-Set "Level 1 rows" to have a font color of blue
-Create named style "red text" that sets font color to red
-Apply named style "red text" to any given level 1 row, the result will be red text

There is a strict hierarchy and if you are not seeing that, then it's possible there is a bug. However, you may be confused in that unless style attributes conflict, they are additive no matter how it's being applied.

I think you fixed in the latest rev 4.0 v160 build 184969. Looks like the application of multiple styles, the latest one takes precedence in ADDING things but leaving the rest the same. One can back it all the way out by taking all the styles off.

BUT - it isn't clear to me how I edit the Level x styles. I should be able to edit them and thereby change all the appropriate levels in the file. How do I do that?

[QUOTE=JohnJ80;124461]BUT - it isn't clear to me how I edit the Level x styles. I should be able to edit them and thereby change all the appropriate levels in the file. How do I do that?[/QUOTE]

Yes, you should be able to select a level style in the sidebar, the ones between "Column Titles" and "Notes", and have any attributes set applied to those rows. However, if any of those rows have other styles applied to them, they may very well be overriding the level style. Try it with a brand new document and see if it works as you're expecting.

Just read through this styles thread. I haven't tried 4 yet but, as a longtime OO user, I'm very interested in style export.

My techwriting workflow starts with a draft in OO3, then export as docx, which can be placed in InDesign (with OO level styles mapped to ID paragraph styles).

So, I'm hoping this will still be possible in the new version, and I'm delighted that you're making progress.