Sorry, but I just don't get it.
 

I realise that my head is probably way above the parapet here, but I really don't get OmniWeb. Why, when Safari and Camino are free, would I choose to pay to add yet another browser? My initial reactions are "Hmmm, nice, but nothing special".

OmniGraffle... Brilliant!
OmniOutliner... Oh my! The definitive outliner. The best on [I]any[/I] platform - by far!
OmniWeb... ???

Help me out here please. I'm open to conversion.

Just download it and test it. Faster, easier to use. nice features..

I don't get it why people don't want to pay for a browser. It's the programm, i use the most, so I more than willing to pay for a good produkt.

I agree. I think people mistake the freedom and free use of the internet for the software to access it. If the internet is to remain free - in all aspects, and that has been challenged quite a bit (the Bell conglomerate is a perfect example) - then someone's got to pay for it's advancements. I am more than willing to pay a fee for something that I use everyday and that makes my life easier. I like Firefox, but it still is not designed as well for Macs - it's occasionally buggy from my experience. Omniweb runs smoothly on my Macbook Pro. Safari is fast and decent, but it still lacks some of the extras that come with Omniweb.

Okay... I have downloaded it. I did so before making the post. Frankly, I don't see anything special in it. I'd agree with the comment about Firefox, but Camino uses the same Gekko rendering engine and is a 100% Cocoa build. It's fast, clean and free. You don't necessarily get better software just because it has a price tag.

I'd really like to like OmniWeb, primarily because I'm bowled over by the other Omni software that I use. So far though, my impression has barely reached tepid.

One needs to spend some time with Omniweb's feature set to appreciate the depth of what's there. I'd use it exclusively if the only "extra" feature was the tab drawer implementation. I agree with wiredzen that there is a value consideration. Just because something is "free" does not mean that there are not costs associated with using an inferior product. I use a web browser more than any other piece of software, and I'm less willing to put up with inferior usability and willing to pay for features that enhance my user experience and productivity.

1) Safari and Firefox both require 3rd party add-on's to do ad blocking which break frequently with incremental updates and are orders of magnitude less intuitive and flexible than Omni's built-in tool.
2) user defined URL shortcuts
3) built-in source and page element viewer/extractor with source syntax coloring
4) better history implementation than Safari or Firefox
5) better privacy management tools than Safari
6) user control of "safe applications" for downloads
7) workspaces
8) better integration with URL Manager Pro
9) Webkit is not Gekko

Camino is carbon based actually, not Cocoa. Omniweb [B]is[/B] Cocoa based - which means all the neat little Cocoa extras that I really like about OS X work in Omniweb.

I used Camino for a while when Omniweb wasn't being updated. It's a fine browser. I didn't like the fact that I couldn't use some of my favorite Firefox extensions, and I found the lack of bookmark syncing really annoying. But what I really was bothered by was the constant font display issues that Camino as a gecko based browser has.

The newest version of gecko, which is cocoa based, won't have these font problems, but that won't be out until the fall. Unlike my use of the Omniweb alphas, I find the Firefox and Camino alphas too unstable for real daily use.

The other feature of Omniweb that I've come to really use is the ability to have site-specific preferences. That ability to tweak fonts and/or CSS per site has become something I'm not willing to give up easily and is the primary reason I'm so delighted that now that Omniweb is moving forward with a new version of webkit, I'm able to use it as my primary browser again.

1) Thumbnail tabs
2) Advanced search shortcut setup. By default type "google [item to search for]" and OW searches for it on Google. I've simplified this: "g [querry]" searches google, "gi" searches google images, "tb" thottbot, "movies [location]" searches yahoo movies for listings, etc etc. When I use other browsers I miss this feature more than any other. It's SO much faster to hit "Command-L" and then "g take apart diagram of Apple iPhone" than it is to go to Google or use a google bar.

There are other things that I like about OW, other things that are amazing about OW, but honestly off the top of my head when I'm really sleepy, those are the two that are ABSOLUTELY worth the cost of the browser.

Incidentally, I first started using OW because it was the first multithreaded browser on OS X. The internet itself was slower, and it was often the server's fault at the time, and being able to have one page loading in a background window while you interact with the foreground window was REALLY nice.

[QUOTE=MacAddict4Life]
2) Advanced search shortcut setup. By default type "google [item to search for]" and OW searches for it on Google. I've simplified this: "g [querry]" searches google, "gi" searches google images, "tb" thottbot, "movies [location]" searches yahoo movies for listings, etc etc. When I use other browsers I miss this feature more than any other. It's SO much faster to hit "Command-L" and then "g take apart diagram of Apple iPhone" than it is to go to Google or use a google bar.[/QUOTE]

You can do this in Camino as well.

I still like OmniWeb better, at least as soon as it's stability problems are fixed. Per site preferences are worth the price of admission for me.

It all really depends on your needs, after all. Perhaps you don't have the same needs that others willing to purchase a license require.

As the previous poster noted, site preferences are very nice. Even though SafariStand will allow you to create site preferences, the control is not as fine and usage not as simple as OW. Until Safari 3.0, I don't think any other browsers had zoomed text editing. Very useful, especially for longer online application forms or submitting screeds to online forums <grin>.

Give it a try.

[QUOTE=kocab]Camino is carbon based actually, not Cocoa. Omniweb [B]is[/B] Cocoa based - which means all the neat little Cocoa extras that I really like about OS X work in Omniweb.
[/QUOTE]

Ahh, then the Camino web site is telling porkies - it clearly states:
[QUOTE]From new features like the system spell-checker and session saving to improvements in trademark features like annoyance blocking, Camino 1.5 makes all your web tasks more enjoyable. Built on the world’s most compatible rendering engine, Mozilla’s Gecko 1.8.1, it displays more pages more accurately than any other Cocoa browser.[/QUOTE]
Be that as it may, I have stumbled across some rather elegant features of OW that are not immediately apparent - things don't seem to be where I'd expect them, but that's just a familiarisation issue. I'll reserve final judgement for the duration of the trial period, but I'm still inclined that OW is not in the same superclass as OO & OG.

FWIW, while it is now true that e.g. Firefox can get close to OmniWeb in terms of features (and has some that OmniWeb doesn't), when OmniWeb 5.0 was originally released a few years ago, only Opera and (to an extent) iCab came remotely close to having the same feature set as OmniWeb. E.g. drag and droppable/copy and paste-able tabs were completely unique to OmniWeb 5.0 when it first came out. It is only within the past year/year-and-a-half that Firefox and Safari have gained this ability. Also, it is only within the past year that the Firefox extensions to approximate e.g. graphical tabs and workspaces have become robust enough to use daily (even then, they are still quite flaky and, with respect to Workspaces, much less user friendly).

When OmniGroup start work on OmniWeb 6.0, hopefully they have some good ideas on how to take that big leap forward again. A few of the current features require refinement, but let's hope they have some ideas for unique features to add again.

To quickly clarify an earlier point - Camino IS written in cocoa, but the browser view is Gecko, which at the moment uses the older Quickdraw rendering. I think the view that it's carbon stems from not using cocoa text fields (no native spell check or dictionary look up for example). Spell check has had to be written in specially.

I can see why someone may not feel there’s value in paying for OW, but for me, it’s a small price to pay for what I feel is a better browser experience.

The main features I enjoy about OW are...

graphical tabs

site specific preferences

user-configurable search field

integrated ad blocking functionality

and honestly, it just ‘feels’ more like a Mac app than FireFox and, frankly, Safari. At least to me.

Of course, Omni. None other.
 

[list][*]Edit files directly on the website.[*]Workspaces. (Please play with them.)[*]Extreme ad-blocking. (Everybody keeps talking about google ads. I don't remember what they look like.)[*]Applescriptable. (I can load a month of Dilbert for viewing.) And yeah, other browsers are scriptable. Like iCab.[*]Someone said it earlier, I'll say it again: Per Site Preferences. Not every site gets to use java on my machine. Certain sites have different download locations. Only certain sites get to leave cookies.[*]Download window accepts urls. (I don't know. Do other browsers do this?)[/list]That's the short list for me.

[QUOTE=forum member][list][*]Applescriptable. (I can load a month of Dilbert for viewing.) And yeah, other browsers are scriptable. Like iCab.
[/QUOTE]

I wonder why there are no OW entries in Automator. That would be helpful.

Well... the verdict is I'll wait for Omniweb 6. It's true that this browser has some nice features, but I'm left distinctly underwhelmed. I adore OmniGraffle, depend on OmniOutliner, and am completely bowled over by OmniFocus (even though it's still in alpha). But OW? Nah! It just doesn't press enough buttons to unlock my wallet, so I'll stick with Safari and Camino for the time being.

I guess it's like Omni's choice in using vBulletin, instead of phpBB.

Both are great bits of forum software. One is free, and one isn't.

While I was a major proponent of phpBB for years, after seeing the new versions of vBulletin, I'll never choose to go with phpBB again.

Maybe it's not like that for you, and that's fine, but to me, OW is [B][i]the[/i][/B] reason I switched from 9 to X.

SC

[QUOTE=Smithcraft]I guess it's like Omni's choice in using vBulletin, instead of phpBB.

Both are great bits of forum software. One is free, and one isn't.

While I was a major proponent of phpBB for years, after seeing the new versions of vBulletin, I'll never choose to go with phpBB again.

Maybe it's not like that for you, and that's fine, but to me, OW is [B][i]the[/i][/B] reason I switched from 9 to X.

SC[/QUOTE]

Ahh... now [B][i]my[/i][/B] preference is phpBB. It seems cleaner somehow. But then, it would be a boring old world if everybody had exactly the same tastes now, wouldn't it?

That last sentence though... that's a mighty big endorsement. Maybe I'll take another look.

[QUOTE=Juddbert;17143]I'm still inclined that OW is not in the same superclass as OO & OG.[/QUOTE]

I am inclined to agree with you. A few things in OW are implemented very poorly (RSS in particular -- see all my posts on the subject) and seem not to be getting fixed in the Sneaky Peeks. All the same, OW is the best of a flawed bunch of browsers that I have to choose from:

Safari - unstable, hangs on many sites
Firefox - terrible XUL interface, dog slow
Camino - missing key features, can be slow
Shiira - not nearly ready to use
Opera - unusable UI, needs serious de-cluttering

I'll take OW's nagging bugs over the fundamental flaws of the others.

On this side of the pond $14.95 (Say £7.50 UK) equates to a couple of bottles of Stella - 3 if you're very lucky. OK you could get more if you were buying Bud or similar urine de Cheval.

However, given OW is something I use everyday, it is hardly overpriced.

I bought my OW license at the old price and I thought it was a bargain!

SC

[QUOTE=Tacitus;19119]On this side of the pond $14.95 (Say £7.50 UK) equates to a couple of bottles of Stella - 3 if you're very lucky. OK you could get more if you were buying Bud or similar urine de Cheval.

However, given OW is something I use everyday, it is hardly overpriced.[/QUOTE]
Yo! We have no disagreement here. My points are not issues based upon value for money. My argument derives from issues of quality and performance.

In truth, I'm irritated that OmniGroup feel justified in seeking pecuniary recompense for what is, by their standards, a mediocre program. If other software houses have deemed that an internet browser is (a) worth developing, and (b) worth disseminating [I]gratis[/I] for the greater good, then why is OmniGroup, a leading-edge software developer, so out of step on this issue? To be sure, OmniWeb has it’s devotees, but let’s be frank here; it’s just a web browser. This is not cutting edge development. I’ll grant you that it does sport a few unique features, and I do take on board the fact that Omni developers are rightly proud of their achievements, and expect to be receive something more than an editor’s ‘pick of the week’ for their efforts. But I’ll continue to maintain that this particular program is not super-class; it simply does not deserve the same accolades as OmniOutliner, OmniGraffle, OmniPlan and, even though it’s still in alpha, OmniFocus. To my mind, Camino is a better performer in virtually all the elements that define a world class browser, and it’s free to anyone who takes the trouble to download it. OmniWeb has failed, both in its breadth of features, and its performance, to persuade me otherwise. It's good enough to be a loss leader, an introduction to the OmniWay... but as for payment? Nah, in its current version, I don't think so.

I guess what I’m trying to say here is simply that I’ll not "oohh and aahh” over a program that doesn’t hit the sweet spot, even if it does herald from a company that, in general, I hold in very high regard. If I consider that it could, and should, be better, then I’m doing a disservice to OmniGroup by not voicing my concerns. I’ve nothing against purchasing good software. But OmniWeb is not good software - it’s mediocre software competing against very good free software. Am I wrong in demanding it should be better?

Best

Roy

You aren't wrong in demanding that it should be better, but the rest is your opinion, and honestly I can't agree that any browser is better. I get frustrated with FireFox with it's constant annoyance popups, and Safari which in general bites it from the total lack of features standpoint.

Camino, I tried it once, and never felt the need to try it again.

Also any browser that doubles as an email client, loses my vote from the get go.

So, like I said above, 'to each their own.' For you OmniWeb isn't it, but for me, I don't like using anything else.*

I would hope that you continue to try OW and provide your critiques to the dev team to make it the best though.

SC

*I do use Safari when I wanna check a link or two, as my default workspace in OW has about 20 tabs, and I use FF for banking as it is accepted by more financial institutions than WebKit browsers.

Okay SC. Seems like we'll have to agree to disagree on this one :)

Of course I'll continue to try OW. I'll probably bitch and moan about it too, until the gods at OG either start parcelling it out as a freebie, or re-establish it as a browser actually [B][I]worth[/I][/B] buying.

Perhaps you'll permit me to suggest that you adopt a similar strategy, and re-visit Camino again from time to time. It is continually evolving and, you never know, one day you might actually find that you like it.

Will do!

SC

[QUOTE=Juddbert;19140]Yo! We have no disagreement here. My points are not issues based upon value for money. My argument derives from issues of quality and performance.

.... But I’ll continue to maintain that this particular program is not super-class; it simply does not deserve the same accolades as OmniOutliner, OmniGraffle, OmniPlan and, even though it’s still in alpha, OmniFocus. To my mind, Camino is a better performer in virtually all the elements that define a world class browser, and it’s free to anyone who takes the trouble to download it. OmniWeb has failed, both in its breadth of features, and its performance, to persuade me otherwise. It's good enough to be a loss leader, an introduction to the OmniWay... but as for payment? Nah, in its current version, I don't think so.

... But OmniWeb is not good software - it’s mediocre software competing against very good free software. Am I wrong in demanding it should be better?

Best

Roy[/QUOTE]

We should always demand better of any product. Nothing wrong there. But are "mediocre" and "very good" purely objective terms as you understand or use them?

To my mind, much of our evaluation of software is based on personal needs and preferences, not some absolute, objective standard. That's not to deny qualitative differences either. Some software is rather lacking, to be sure.

For me personally, I need site preferences for work perusing sites in different languages. No other browser that offers some form of site preferences (ie SafariStand and FF plugins) matches what I like about OW's implementation of it. The other aspect which was, until the recent release of Safari 3B, unique and useful for me was zoomed text editing. Even though Safari 3 will offer this, I still prefer OW's implementation since the text field can expand beyond the size of the original browser window (especially useful for discussion forums, I've found, especially lengthy exchanges).

You probably do not need the features that for me make OW my browser of choice--despite some imperfections. But until you offer compelling arguments to the contrary, I don't think that OW can simply be categorized as "mediocre" when compared to other browsers.

[QUOTE=daiyi666@yahoo.com;19166]We should always demand better of any product. Nothing wrong there. But are "mediocre" and "very good" purely objective terms as you understand or use them? [/QUOTE]

I did, or so I thought, make it clear that I was offering a personal perspective:
[QUOTE]But I’ll continue to maintain that this particular program is not super-class; it simply does not deserve the same accolades as OmniOutliner, OmniGraffle, OmniPlan and, even though it’s still in alpha, OmniFocus. To my mind, Camino is a better performer in virtually all the elements that define a world class browser, and it’s free to anyone who takes the trouble to download it. OmniWeb has failed, both in its breadth of features, and its performance, to persuade me otherwise.[/QUOTE]
If this isn't a subjective appraisal, then I don't know what is. I'm expressing opinions; questions, opinions, answers, perspectives, persuasion, these are the fundamentals of this and any other forum. We are all at liberty to evaluate according to our personal needs and preferences. I'm not looking to cause offense - I'm looking to be persuaded! To that end I'll call it as I see it, and quite accept that others are entitled, and indeed likely, to do the same.

Best

Roy

[QUOTE=Juddbert;19167]I did, or so I thought, make it clear that I was offering a personal perspective:

If this isn't a subjective appraisal, then I don't know what is. I'm expressing opinions; questions, opinions, answers, perspectives, persuasion, these are the fundamentals of this and any other forum. We are all at liberty to evaluate according to our personal needs and preferences. I'm not looking to cause offence - I'm looking to be persuaded! To that end I'll call it as I see it, and quite accept that others are entitled, and indeed likely, to do the same.

Best

Roy[/QUOTE]

You're certainly not causing any offence, and should continue to offer your opinions here. Since you find Camino (which I have used and like) better suited to your needs, however, I'm not sure what the point of persuading you would be at this juncture.

[QUOTE=Juddbert;19155]Okay SC. Seems like we'll have to agree to disagree on this one :)

Of course I'll continue to try OW. I'll probably bitch and moan about it too, until the gods at OG either start parcelling it out as a freebie, or re-establish it as a browser actually [B][I]worth[/I][/B] buying.

Perhaps you'll permit me to suggest that you adopt a similar strategy, and re-visit Camino again from time to time. It is continually evolving and, you never know, one day you might actually find that you like it.[/QUOTE]

I've gone over to Camino for the time being, it's a relatively simple and solid browser. OmniWeb stability problems were just getting too much for me, both in 5.5.4 and in the last alphas that I tried (haven't tried the latest). But I check back here and will try OW again later because I really like many of its features, particularly the per site preferences.

If you are satisfied using Camino, then it is already apparent that OmniWeb might not be the browser for you at the moment. Personally, I find Camino (much like Safari) to be far too "browser-lite". In other words, it is overly simplistic (and, therefore, very frustrating to use) for my needs. However, comparing Camino and OmniWeb is the equivalent of comparing Camino and Firefox - in both comparisons, they are two browsers aimed at very different audiences.

Now don’t go laughing at me, but I am slowly beginning to appreciate some of this browser’s feature set, particularly the per-site preference pane. A bit like getting into a car with cruise control and anti-lock breaking; you don’t realise the full potential until you try it. Also, there’s something about the interface - all of a sudden I’m looking back at Safari and thinking “Nnnnn…”.

Oh, one other thing (and I’d rather be having teeth pulled than admitting to this), I’ve shelled out for a license. Not because I think it’s worth it, or because I’ve suffered an epiphany and joined the ranks of the true believers. I simply want to ensure that my argument (campaign) for a better and preferably free OmniWeb is conducted from a position of strength. So the wallet’s been reluctantly dusted off, the moths evicted, and henceforth I’m released from that irritating message about it being an Omni thing…

We won't laugh at you... just point fingers and smirk ;-)

Incidentally, if you are looking for some ideas of how you can use the Workspace feature, feel free to download my [url=http://homepage.mac.com/jtyzack/PublicFS/Menu45.html]examples[/url].

Edit: I also have a film of how to add search shortcuts in OW at that site.

We would never laugh at anyone (unless, of course, they demanded their money back and insulted us all on this forum).

Thanks, too, for purchasing a license. It certainly will help to ensure future development of OW.

Money well spent...
Peace,
Stuart