Returning to no folders
 

Hi all,

So after having implemented a long folder hierarchy representing my areas of responsibility, etc., returning to OF I find that I'm longing for the simplicity of a true GTD implementation (see e.g. David Allen Co whitepaper on Entourage): so I'm going to dispense with my folders (right now I'm keeping Work/Personal, but I plan to do away with that soon as well).
I really enjoyed having a "reminder" of my areas of responsibilities and of long-term projects that are more abstract than concrete (e.g.: "X years later, be happy having made decision Y now"). I've found that TaskPaper works really well for me for this kind of stuff, so I'm going to try to have it running across the 3 platforms (Mac, iPhone, iPad) along with OF so I can get both foci.
In the meantime, I'd really love to hear from those of you who have not been using folders for any tips/tricks/advice and/or problems arising with large numbers of projects.

Thanks!

[QUOTE=hypotyposis;78373]after having implemented a long folder hierarchy representing my areas of responsibility ... I'm going to dispense with my folders (right now I'm keeping Work/Personal, but I plan to do away with that soon as well).[/QUOTE]

There is a cost to folders (visual clutter, and the need to drill down), but, as is suggested by your hesitation over dropping the Work / Personal folders, there is a value too.

I find that you can get the best of both worlds by keeping folders but being able to click a button which hides the folder hierarchy completely, and just shows a flat list of all your projects.

This is the script I use, and it can be fine-tuned ...

[CODE]
-- Hide folder hierarchy and display a flat list of all projects

tell application "OmniFocus"
set oDoc to default document
set lstProjects to my ProjectList(oDoc)
set focus of front document window of oDoc to lstProjects
end tell

on ProjectList(oParent)
using terms from application "OmniFocus"
tell oParent
-- ADJUST THE WHERE QUERIES TO MATCH
--THE TYPE OF PROJECTS YOU WANT TO LIST
set lstProjects to projects where (status is active) or (status is on hold)
set lstFolders to folders where hidden is false
end tell
repeat with oFolder in lstFolders
set lstProjects to lstProjects & my ProjectList(oFolder)
end repeat
return lstProjects
end using terms from
end ProjectList[/CODE]

Thanks for the script!

I just [i]re-implemented[/i] folders, or actually a more AofF folder structure. I was hesitant since I'd tried something similar before but I decided the key for me is to set up some more good perspectives. But knowing that I can 'flatten' things with a couple clicks will be nice too.

Thanks RobTrew for the scripts and comments... I think if I return to folders, this will definitely be the way to go.
To address something you said, though, I'm not actually hesitant to break down the personal/work hierarchy, I just needed some spare time (getting to it now) to coalesce Single Action lists together and decide whether I actually want to keep any more SA lists than the original "Miscellaneous" (which I spent so much time hating in the beginning...). For me, breaking down the distinction between work and personal items actually was a great jump not just in productivity but in overall "happiness", which occurred after my first read of GTD. I think I got a bit too involved with the "tinkering with the system" thing by playing with folders and establishing (not-so-)arbitrary delimitations—not saying no-one can benefit from folders, etc.; just relating my personal experience.
I'd be very interested to hear from you and from Malisa, if you wouldn't mind sharing, what your folder hierarchies are, and what your perspectives/workflow look like.

Thanks!

I've gone back and forth with this and it was holding me up so I decided to keep my folders. I'm not sure if its change resistance or I really need the segregation that folders gives me.

I have a Home and Office folder. In my office folder, I have a sub folder for each client I consult for. Within Client X's folder I have a folder for each project I'm working on for them which contains any documents related to that project.

Whats worse is I travel weekly and have replicated this folder structure on my laptop and when I get home on Friday, I move things to my desktop. I have started using smart folders to identify what folders I want to keep on my MBP and copy them manually Sunday night before I leave on Monday.

I'm not sure what I'm missing but how would eliminating my folder structure be better? I've already screwed up and forgot to copy my desktop folders to my laptop so clearly this is not a good solution!

Sorry, wasn't trying to hijack the thread but I would like to hear from those committed to not using folders about their experience!
Thanks,
Brad

Why aren't you using OmniFocus' sync to keep everything identical all the time? Doing it by hand is just asking for trouble...

bmushrush, just to make sure, are you talking about folders inside the OmniFocus application or about Finder folders? If the latter, I recommend you check out Todd Vasquez's Ready-Set-Do!, which provides a great, if somewhat rigid, integration of the finder structure for GTD, and interfaces decently with OmniFocus, I'm lead to understand.

hypotyposis, yes sorry. I was talking about Finder folders. Thanks for the info, I'll look into it straight away.

[QUOTE=whpalmer4;78748]Why aren't you using OmniFocus' sync to keep everything identical all the time? Doing it by hand is just asking for trouble...[/QUOTE]

Probably because I missed that part!! Thanks, I'll read about that too ;)

Really would make things easier...

bmushrush, OmniFocus sync will keep your OmniFocus data in sync, not documents you have in the Finder. You might want to look at using a cloud-based solution (MobileMe's iDisk or Dropbox, e.g.) for your documents in a more general sense.

Didn't even occur to me (obviously) that you were talking about support materials, sorry. But, as long as we're on the subject, I'm a big fan of DropBox ([url]http://www.dropbox.com[/url]) for such things. Set up a hierarchy in your DropBox folder and your machines stay up to date with each other with no action required on your part except to connect to the internet. There's a free option if you can get by with 2 GB or less of shared storage, otherwise there are paid options which offer much more storage space. You can also publish external links to individual items so you can mail a URL to someone instead of trying to send them an enormous file, and you can also set up shared folders with other DropBox users.

hypotyposis/whpalmer4, My original post was not as clear as it should have been. I am using MobileMe and my OF data is stored there. I'm synchronizing my OF data between my phone, laptop, and desktop.

What I am manually moving around are the active project and some reference folders and their contents. Some or all of this will more than likely stop. I'm may resort to using my external USB drives so the data stays in one place.

Of course I could store those in the cloud as well but since some of my reference files are sensitive, I prefer to keep them on my machines. I have a task for examining what options exist for keeping files in sync but that is a maybe/Someday thing! Just haven't had the time yet.

I'm looking into the Ready Set Do scripts and it looks interesting.

Thanks to you and whpalmer4 for your responses. I'm still new with both GTD and OF so I really appreciate your time!

Brad

Depending on the size of your reference materials, you could store them in encrypted disk images in the cloud, though at that point you would have to exercise more care about not making changes on more than one machine at a time, since the whole disk image becomes an opaque blob. You do get the advantage that the files are accessible (and backed up, in the case of DropBox) which wouldn't necessarily be the case if something happens to your external drive.

[QUOTE=hypotyposis;78749]I recommend you check out Todd Vasquez's Ready-Set-Do!, which provides a great, if somewhat rigid, integration of the finder structure for GTD, and interfaces decently with OmniFocus, I'm lead to understand.[/QUOTE]

I read about RSD and downloaded the trial. It looks like it has a means to move from OmniFocus to RSD but does not appear to be integrated with OF. Unless I'm missing something, it's a stand alone group of scripts that implements GTD. It does integrate with OmniOutliner Pro though.

I will say that Todd was very helpful and quick in assisting me with some install issues I had.

[QUOTE=bmushrush;78807]I read about RSD and downloaded the trial. It looks like it has a means to move from OmniFocus to RSD but does not appear to be integrated with OF. Unless I'm missing something, it's a stand alone group of scripts that implements GTD. It does integrate with OmniOutliner Pro though.

I will say that Todd was very helpful and quick in assisting me with some install issues I had.[/QUOTE]

You are correct, bmushrush: I should have said "works nicely alongside". In my personal experience, I've used RSD along with OF to manage different things: e.g., the folder structure in the finder. Although RSD if used altogether is pretty strict in its implementation, nothing prevents you from picking and choosing which scripts to use and when to use them.
So for instance, I still make use of the "Get Inbox To Empty" script from RSD, which is linked to in my "Get Mac Files Inbox to Empty" task in OF, to clean up this part of my system; etc.

Hope this makes more sense.

No worries, I read what I wanted it to say ; )
You make a good point of picking and choosing. I do like the approach of using scripts and how RSD worked. I tested that approach with a couple of projects and really liked the structured result of actionable items. I'll come back to scripting once I get "something" in place...

[QUOTE=malisa;78396]I just [i]re-implemented[/i] folders, or actually a more AofF folder structure ... but knowing that I can 'flatten' things with a couple clicks will be nice too.[/QUOTE]

This version of the script behaves as a toggle - the first click gives a flat view, a second click returns to folder view.

[CODE]-- Toggle between a flat and a folder-indented sidebar
-- (An experiment in conditional compilation, as latest Sneaky Peaks
-- offer quicker (and more rationally ordered)
-- flattening of the project list)

property pstrNewScript : "
script
on GetProjects(oDoc)
using terms from application \"OmniFocus\"
return flattened projects of oDoc
end using terms from
end GetProjects
end script
"

property pstrOldScript : "
script
on GetProjects(oParent)
using terms from application \"OmniFocus\"
tell oParent
-- ADJUST THE WHERE QUERIES TO MATCH THE PURPOSE
set lstProjects to projects
set lstFolders to folders
end tell
repeat with oFolder in lstFolders
set lstProjects to lstProjects & my GetProjects(oFolder)
end repeat
return lstProjects
end using terms from
end GetProjects
end script
"

tell application id "com.omnigroup.OmniFocus"
set oDoc to default document
set oWin to front document window of oDoc

if my IsNarrowed(focus of oWin) then
set focus of oWin to {}
else
if build number ≥ "77.57.0.134152" then
set oScript to run script pstrNewScript
else
set oScript to run script pstrOldScript
end if
set lstProjects to GetProjects(oDoc) of oScript
set focus of oWin to lstProjects
end if
end tell

-- Detect whether the sidebar has a narrowed focus
on IsNarrowed(oFocus)
repeat with oObj in oFocus
return true
end repeat
return false
end IsNarrowed[/CODE]

RobTrew - thanks very much for the script! It is still helpful as I have folders for checklists, etc. But, I am pleased to report, I have done away completely with folders otherwise! Yes, that includes the Personal/Professional distinction!

Now we'll just have to see how long this lasts for...

I'm finding, though, that using a good set of perspectives linked to in my review projects seems to get me by adequately so far.

bmushrush – I should also note that, in my opinion, the RSD scripts for Read/Review stuff are one of the best way to deal with having lots of PDFs (or any other file format, really) to read on the computer, if by chance that's something you have to deal with...

Cheers!

[QUOTE=RobTrew;79018]This version of the script behaves as a toggle - the first click gives a flat view, a second click returns to folder view.
[/QUOTE]

Nice! That's some impressive scripting, Rob. I love the embedding of the script definitions in properties to use the new flatten option when it's available.

[QUOTE=curt.clifton;79119]I love the embedding of the script definitions in properties to use the new flatten option when it's available.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, Curt ! The playing around with Run Script goes back to our discussion about scope for run-time editing of Where/Whose clauses. (It does turn out to be possible, though I have not quite decided whether that is the root of an odd interaction between the OO3 toolbar script-launcher and my row-filtering scripts)

Awhile back, I had a hierarchy of folders relating to abstract concepts like "Personal Development", etc. I believe this was from me trying to implement too much of Getting Things Done into Omnifocus. It was too much.

I left Omnifocus for awhile, and since I've been back, I use Folders strictly for Areas of Focus. I have three: Personal, Work, and one more for an organization I volunteer for. That's it. (If I didn't spend a considerable amount of time with the organization, I would have just lumped that in with Personal). There's no drilling down any further. Plus, I can use the Focus feature with Perspectives and my Areas of Focus.

This works great for me. Anything more (or less) is too chaotic.

Rob, thank you so much! I love this script as I have always struggled with folders vs. flat list. This is awesome!

Why doesn't Omni adopt some of the awesome scripts Rob, Cliff, et. al develop? These jewels are often buried in the forums.

Steve

I finally got around to installing this script. I just got the ipad app and am deciding how I want to tweak things. I have kept my folder arrangement since I last posted here, but I don't like it. Plus I'm finding it unwieldy on the ipad in particular.

But, as I feared, the script is just changing what you SEE on the desktop version, right? So even if you sync, no change to the ipad. Right?

Hmmm. Decisions, decisions.

Thanks again though Rob, it is beautiful on the desktop.

[QUOTE=malisa;84037]

But, as I feared, the script is just changing what you SEE on the desktop version, right? So even if you sync, no change to the ipad. Right?
[/QUOTE]
That's correct — it does the equivalent of cmd-clicking in the sidebar on all of the projects (but none of the folders), then focusing on the resulting selection. Nothing changes in the database.

It wouldn't be too terribly difficult to arrange for it to actually turn your folder structure into a flat list, but the code to support toggling back at some future point would be a challenge :-)

If you are really prepared to irreversibly lose the meaning and memory of your folder structure, want to perform a quick once-only and non-reversible flattening, you could, of course:[LIST=1][*]Use the script to display all projects in a flattened list,[*]create a new folder,[*]select the whole list of projects and drag them into the new folder.[/LIST]
(Using the script to toggle back to the folder view would then reveal a surviving but emptied hierarchy of folders, with all the projects in a single flattened list.)

Not a step to be taken lightly, and I personally haven't tested this and don't recommend it :-)

[COLOR="White"]--[/COLOR]

Thanks. I manually drastically changed the structure. Much less hierarchy, but some.

I can understand the current of ambivalence about folders that runs through this thread. Nesting is useful (I am not persuaded by the current rhetoric about simply replacing "hierarchy" with search), but nesting needs to be fluid and easily changed, and one always needs flattened views as well as gathered ones.

The current support for drag and drop is already pretty good in the sidebar, but people clearly do find that folders are either just a little too clumsy for fluid and continual reorganisation, or impede a quick visual search just a little too much.

I personally use folders for building overview, integration, and narrative, but I do find that this requires continual collapsing, reordering and regathering, and that this isn't yet quite as quick and easy as it might be (though applescript can remove a little of the friction, with functions like "flatten the selected sub-tree" and "gather the selected elements into a new or existing folder").



[COLOR="White"]--[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=RobTrew;84066]I can understand the current of ambivalence about folders that runs through this thread. Nesting is useful (I am not persuaded by the current rhetoric about simply replacing "hierarchy" with search), but nesting needs to be fluid and easily changed, and one always needs flattened views as well as gathered ones.

The current support for drag and drop is already pretty good in the sidebar, but people clearly do find that folders are either just a little too clumsy for fluid and continual reorganisation, or impede a quick visual search just a little too much.

I personally use folders for building overview, integration, and narrative, but I do find that this requires continual collapsing, reordering and regathering, and that this isn't yet quite as quick and easy as it might be (though applescript can remove a little of the friction, with functions like "flatten the selected sub-tree" and "gather the selected elements into a new or existing folder").



[COLOR="White"]--[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Rob, thanks for your always thoughtful reflections. I must say that, bar my current un-fodlered system, your (un)flattening scripts seemed like the best solution vs. search for the reasons you mention above. So far I'm finding the absence of hierarchy (full flattened lists) are helping me out (just talking about my personal circumstances) because they "force" me to re-engage and be aware of my system's current state more consistently. In other words, having everything flattened out (paradoxically?) helps me trust in my engaging with the system fully and regularly.

Going folderless (sounds so risque!) works well with AutoFocus techniques [url]http://www.markforster.net/autofocus-index/[/url] wherein your tasks live on a simple, single list--apparently hopelessly intermingled, till you learn the system.

OF has way more power than you need for this system, but I find the quick input and sync are great (and I do use projects and contexts to provide other views, even though not required by the system).