[whpalmer4]

Originally Posted by wolfneuralnet

I get that you want to do your own sync, but this is after a year of trying to iCloud to work, refusing to support Dropbox, and now there are issues that you can't work around in your own syncing technology?

How do you know the issues were in Omni's syncing technology? That the issues couldn't be worked around suggests otherwise — they could fix their own code.

[Ken Case]

Originally Posted by wolfneuralnet

Hi Ken -- I noticed you had tweeted that you were trying to get this into 1.3, but had issues:

kcase: @jwilker The major focus for 1.3 was originally doc sync, which unfortunately we've had to pull because of issues we couldn't work around.

I get that you want to do your own sync, but this is after a year of trying to iCloud to work, refusing to support Dropbox, and now there are issues that you can't work around in your own syncing technology?

Oh! Sorry that this wasn't more clear.

We haven't run into any issues at all with our own syncing technology. I was referring to efforts based on proprietary sync solutions (which we were attempting to get working, but have now stopped pursuing).

[wolfneuralnet]

Thanks Ken -- I happened to see the tweet and read your post on the same day, so assumed you were talking about your own solution (thought you had given up on iCloud ages ago). Sorry to hear iCloud isn't going to work out for now, but I haven't heard too many other developers happy with it so far either. Hard to believe they messed that one up, but I guess we get new iPhones instead.

An update some time about how the sync tech for Outliner is going would be great - still not using OO iPad much due to the in/out efforts required.

[kenficara]

Originally Posted by Brian

Sorry for the frustration here, UncleJr; we've been working on iCloud support continuously for over a year now, so we certainly understand where you're coming from.

Our CEO recently posted this article on our blog; it may be helpful in understanding the situation. For a third party perspective, Macworld magazine did a great article recently that I'd recommend checking out.

With respect to Dropbox, there are other risks to keep in mind, which is one of the reasons we're not currently working on that. Maybe in the future, though.

Here's a hint, Omni Group: When your users are all asking for something, get working on it, instead of ignoring them, telling them why they shouldn't want it, or proposing workarounds that they already know about. You have one option that is built into iOS (iCloud) and another that appears, by count of requests in this form, to be the most popular document-sharing service by a wide margin (Dropbox).

Every other iPad app I use regularly (Notebook, your competitor, for whose iPad application I happily paid $30; GoodReader; iaWriter; all my recording apps) introduced support for both of these a long time ago. So please don't ask us to believe that it's some deficiency in iCloud, or your concern for our security, that is preventing you from introducing these features.

Plain and simple: Stop prioritizing things your customers don't want (why on EARTH would I want ANOTHER syncing server to worry about, and I have no reason whatsoever to be confident in your security) and start working on the things we do want. We are your customers, and we know (much) better than you do what we need.

Oh, and PS -- it's now September, and the "recent" articles you posted are months old. We're waiting.

[whpalmer4]

Originally Posted by kenficara

So please don't ask us to believe that it's some deficiency in iCloud, or your concern for our security, that is preventing you from introducing these features.

I'm an external beta tester for all of the Omni iOS apps. I've watched them working on the iCloud support for a long time. They didn't willingly give up.

It was not a concern for your security, necessarily; as Ken pointed out, there are business risks using anyone's proprietary solution (such as Dropbox). You don't have to be worried about the security of Omni's sync server because you don't have to use it — any standards-compliant WebDAV server (including the one that comes installed on every Mac) will do. Provide your own server, and secure it yourself to the standard you want.

[nick101]

Originally Posted by kenficara

Every other iPad app I use regularly (Notebook, your competitor, for whose iPad application I happily paid $30; GoodReader; iaWriter; all my recording apps) introduced support for both of these a long time ago. So please don't ask us to believe that it's some deficiency in iCloud, or your concern for our security, that is preventing you from introducing these features.

I use Notebook too. Its sync to Dropbox is very useful (and is a main reason why I use it in preference to OO, although there are others), but is a very partial implementation. If you edit a notebook at either end (Mac or iPad), you have to sync *before* editing at the other end. If you don't, you have to choose which copy to keep. It's less like syncing than like document sharing. I've had issues with the process, although I've now got a workflow that seems to get around them.

Admittedly, even that limited functionality would be a step in the right direction for OO, but I can already hear the objections if that's all we got.

As for the other apps you mentioned, they work entirely at the single document level - the whole point with OO (and Notebook) is that they use the bundle model, which is, essentially, a folder of many documents, managed as a single entity. That's a very different problem from the relatievly simple Dropbox/single doc model of checking which is the most recent version. As an example - if Notebook sync detects that *any one* of the individual elemnts might have changed, it throws an error asking you to choose which notebook (i.e. folder) to keep.

Cultured Code (Things) have only just got syncing working, after years of promises. This is obviously not as easy as we'd like.

I do believe that if Omni don't solve this problem, their long term future is bleak - syncing is becoming more and more essential.

And as someone else says - if you worry about security of 3rd party cloud solutions, set up your own. Can't have syncing without the cloud

[wolfneuralnet]

A developer shop of exactly one person (two now) managed to get real doc syncing working long before Omni - I use TaskPaper since I gave up one waiting for the solution for Omni. So, its possible to use DB to do this.

As for the "business" argument to not include DB, there isn't one. You can add the ability to use it along with your own Sync server in parallel. This is purely a theoretical debate about open, closed, proprietary, etc. If you had built DB syncing in, and DB shut down, you could remove the code with a simple update and those users could switch to your solution.

Its fine, you bet on the wrong horse (iCloud), Steve should have bought DB, etc. -- we get it. Lets stop pretending its anything else (a business decision) and get the Omni Server running as soon as possible for these docs so I can start using the outliner I prefer!

Mentioning Cultured Code as a model of developers doing things correctly is just not going to help here - that place is a mess. I use Things all the time, and there are still common features that don't work (ever tried the "undo" command? What happens? Nothing!).

Anything to accelerate this process (more resources, etc.) would be appreciated Ken.

[nick101]

Originally Posted by wolfneuralnet

Mentioning Cultured Code as a model of developers doing things correctly is just not going to help here - that place is a mess. I use Things all the time, and there are still common features that don't work (ever tried the "undo" command? What happens? Nothing!).

I didn't mention them as an example of how to do things properly; I mentioned them (and Notebook) as an example of another developer struggling to get a reliable sync scheme going.

I'm glad you got your sync working. Perhaps (and I am decidedly *not* being sarcastic) you have some experience/knowledge that might help Ken and the team overcome the onstacles

[whpalmer4]

Originally Posted by wolfneuralnet

A developer shop of exactly one person (two now) managed to get real doc syncing working long before Omni - I use TaskPaper since I gave up one waiting for the solution for Omni. So, its possible to use DB to do this.

Taskpaper doesn't sync documents with attached files, does it? Syncing one text file is an easier proposition than syncing a collection of different file types. Omni may have more developers, but it also has a dozen or so products to develop and support.

I believe most of the Dropbox-based document access applications I have seen only work while you have live connectivity. That's the easy case. What happens when I'm on an airplane without Internet? Yes, the Omni sync server/implementation will have to tackle this issue as well. I'm rather curious to see what they do.

[kenficara]

Originally Posted by whpalmer4

I believe most of the Dropbox-based document access applications I have seen only work while you have live connectivity. That's the easy case. What happens when I'm on an airplane without Internet? Yes, the Omni sync server/implementation will have to tackle this issue as well. I'm rather curious to see what they do.

I've never had any trouble with this; if you edit a document when you're not online, then Dropbox syncs it next time you have connectivity. This works for me on either the iPad or the laptop.