[aleding]

Derek - first off, YES, this would be a wicked cool feature and very useful. Next, any chance you guys can implement survey\voting functions on this forum so we can vote for FRs and other stuff?

[whpalmer4]

You already can vote for and make feature requests, with the Help->Send Feedback command in the program...

[irfoton]

Originally Posted by JayEpoch

... I'd love a powerful note taking & outline app like OO combined with the powerful task/schedule app of OF-- for me these things need to either work seamlessly together or be the same program.

Why do our ideas/notes/outlines need to be separate from our to-do-lists/calendar, etc? Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm obviously not the only one.

I agree. I even asked this question in the OF forum but didn't get much response:

http://forums.omnigroup.com/showthre...hlight=irfoton

[Enkerli]

Originally Posted by irfoton

I agree. I even asked this question in the OF forum but didn't get much response:

http://forums.omnigroup.com/showthre...hlight=irfoton

Thanks for this!
Didn't really use kGTD when it was available (anyone has a copy? Can't find it, anymore). But now that I'm GTDing, it'd be useful.
(I listened to the GTD audiobook, recently. These ideas are so widespread, now, that I didn't really learn much. But I've been implementing my own approach to managing different parts of my life, inspired by Merlin Mann and David Allen.)

In David Allen's approach, notes are reference material which should be filed appropriately and shouldn't clutter your task-based system. There's a certain logic to this. Especially the one about having all "notebooks" in the same "interface." Allen's talks a lot about a paper-based method, but with the tools we now have, an online interface makes sense.
Before I really started implementing a GTD-based approach, I was managing notes in a bunch of OO files. These files weren't that well organized. Usually, the filenames were the main way to distinguish them. I was hand-versioning these outlines through filenames (soci203mtg4b for the second version of notes for the fourth class meeting in my SOCI 203). I didn't really have a master outline for everything.
On my iPod touch, CarbonFin Outliner became quite useful. I would take notes in those outlines, and then sync with the cloud, to then work in OO. Or I would export OO to OPML, sync through CarbonFin, and work "on the go," as I got more ideas.
And I did put tasks in outlines. It did work. Kind of. Wasn't very sophisticated, but it was useful to go back to.
Now, my method is reversed. Instead of putting tasks in outlined notes, I put notes in my task-based management.
More specifically, I'm putting notes in a "Notes" folder in Toodledo. Everything in the same interface, but clearly identified.
Of course, it's not as powerful as true outlining. You can only have three levels (folder, task, subtask), and they're not so easy to reorganize. But it serves my purpose more than I thought it would.
And there's a certain logic to this. Notes and tasks are different but connected. In a way, there are actions embedded in notes ("write about," "think about," "discuss"...) and there's information associated with tasks. More practically, it sometimes make sense to have a checkbox next to a note and it can be ok to have a subtask be a significant piece of text.

Having said this, there's still a need for "pure" outlining. Especially when you're writing. You can go from quick notes to whole paragraphs and sections, with headings. Reorganizing and collapsing can be so useful in writing that it's hard to work in an editor which doesn't support them.
So, what I end up doing, these days, is export my notes from Toodledo into OO through a tabbed text file. In OO, I then reorganize my notes and transform them into an actual text. I then assess the original notes as if they were tasks and check them off ("I talked about this, that...").

One thing I've done a lot in the past which should be easy to implement in my new method but that I haven't done yet is to move pending notes ("odds and ends") as part of new "tasks." What this tells me is that my normal method was already compatible with task-based thinking. As I was writing, some notes were slipping into a kind of "to do" list. Sometimes, these notes were already assigned in a specific piece (notes for my next class meeting). But, sometimes, these notes were part of my "Someday/Maybe" or just general reference list. "I'm not writing about this, now, but I may revisit this issue later."
Of course, blogging has helped me a lot with this. And I often wished that OO would be usable as a blogging editor.

I guess the main realization I have is that outlining happens at different levels, including that of GTD-style life management.

Now, this may all seem a bit off-topic. It's not about cloning/aliasing. But I am thinking about OO4 and I wish it could be more than a paid upgrade from OO 3.9.

[michaelban]

I have multiple outlines detailing manufacturer information of various products including specifications, known issues, and miscellaneous captured information. I have a second collection of outlines for each of my clients - would be amazing to link and cross reference this information. For example, client outlines containing the linked products specifications of those technologies that the client has acquired or is thinking about acquiring.

M.

[soulbarn]

Lots of cool ideas here on how to implement it.

I'd say, start simple with what's fastest to get to the users. Then we'll improve it!

[Plasmatic]

I'm part of a PhD student writing group here at UT (Austin). OmniOutliner's lack of cloning upsets us so much that we're no longer allowed to bring it up in discussions.

Cloning is essential. TAO and Tinderbox have it. And so we're forced to use these. Which is a shame, since OmniOutliner has such a nice interface, and the styling and find-drawer are fantastic.

If Omni wants to market itself as the serious maker of software for serious users, they will have to add cloning. If they do so, they will win. If they stay in the superficial-but-pretty market, they will lose to the competition. (See Steve Jobs on this very issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9dmcRbuTMY.)

XMind, NovaMind, and MindManager are prettier and more advanced than OmniOutliner. But they have a vulnerability: they ALL lack cloning.

Cloning. Put it in OO4 or it's over.

[WrongSizeGlass]

Originally Posted by Plasmatic

Cloning is essential.
<snip>
Cloning. Put it in OO4 or it's over.

Sorry to disappoint you, Plasmatic, but here's a quote from Ken Case in a post by DerekM

Originally Posted by DerekM

We realized that if we scaled back some of the esoteric features which we’d planned for the Pro edition of version 4—cloning and multiple schemas—we could shave three months off its development schedule and get started on OmniOutliner for iPad that much sooner. Now, both of those features are still pretty interesting to us, and we’ve already laid the groundwork for supporting these in the underlying outlining engine—but we think bringing OmniOutliner on iPad is more important overall, so that’s what we’re going to do.

Here's the thread with the quote OmniOutliner 4 and iPad. It looks like the major feature most were hoping for in OO4 have been "back burner'd" at best. Maybe cloning will show up in OO5 in another few years.

[whpalmer4]

Ye of little faith....which Omni products have delivered all of their features in 1.0, or 2.0, or 3.0, or 4.0, or 5.0, and provided nothing more than bug fixes until the next major release? And with Ken stating that they've already laid the groundwork for supporting these features in the outlining engine, it becomes much more feasible to introduce them part way through 4.x than if all related changes had been yanked out of the 4.0 code base.

Now, how you know that "most" were hoping for these features based on the responses in a thread devoted to asking what form those who would like these features would like to see, I'm not quite sure...talk about self-selection bias!

[rogbar]

I second whp's call for patience. A careful reading of OG's statement suggests that while cloning won't make 4.0, it's not unreasonable to believe it will be in an early upgrade. There is a tendency to see these things from our own perspectives, and while I, too, am frustrated by the delay and would dearly love to have cloning today, I understand OG's desire to get an iPad app out quickly, too.

Truth be told, if they took an extra three months to get cloning into 4.0, I'd be happy to get it, but would immediately indulge my need for grumpiness by complaining that the iPad app hadn't dropped yet. But maybe that's just me ...

For now, I'm using DevonThink Pro on those projects that need cloning. When OO has it, I'll be grateful. In the meantime ... take a breath. Life is good. Macs are great. The Saints won the Super Bowl. The remastered Beatles catalog sounds fantastic. "Hurt Locker" got nominated for an Oscar. Spring is coming. I don't mean to denigrate anyone's sincere need for cloning in OO 4.0, but may its delay be the worst thing that happens to any of us.