[cyleigh]

I came to this forum to suggest an OmniBank too! After deciding last week that I hate iBank I have now tried nearly every freaking finance app out there (except Quicken, cause I already knew I would hate it). Like a previous poster, I'm probably going to go with Liquid Ledger 2.2 (although Prospects is a very close second)... but since I own nearly the whole Omni suite, you can guarantee I would buy a OB in a second!

For the love of all that is sweet and holy, yes, please!

I was thinking just such thoughts the other night, and am thrilled to see a whole thread of people who've already made the point.

Please, please, please.

[Pascal Harris]

I use Quicken because it came for free with my Mac. But it sucks so badly. It's U.S. only (Earth calling Intuit - there's a whole world out here. Parts of it quite wealthy. Other parts, not so much.) It's ugly. It's like the Windows of banking apps. The trouble is, I stick with it because I know it (and it was free). Lame excuse.

I would love a really decent banking app, with Quicken compatibility, the capability to import my data and just change the $ to £ without performing any currency conversion, and with the ability to connect to my online accounts (bank and stocks). Woot!

[sgiovannini]

Yes, I would love to see a properly-done Mac app that can compete with Quicken. iBank is close, but not there. I'm trying very hard to convert from Quicken to iBank, even paid for it, but I can't get there. After 15 years of using Quicken, my data must be imported accurately, completely and automatically (not happening).

But there are problems with developing a personal finance app:

- Figure that 90% of the Mac users who might buy a PF app are already using Quicken. Personal finance is a saturated market. People who want to track it on a computer are already doing so. New users will largely be first-time computer buyers or young adults.

- Since Quicken is so well established, a v1.0 app has to duplicate every significant piece of Quicken functionality or risk being labeled "promising" and not being purchased.

- That means online banking in v1.0, which is a huge undertaking not entirely under the control of the developer.

- Personal finance is all about the database. If any piece of the data is wrong or missing (or you suspect it might be), the software is worthless. Personally, I would never do it without a pro-level SQL engine. Developers have to focus on data first, interface second.

- It's nearly impossible to redefine how personal financial data is stored because any app that will survive must import Quicken data and therefore must copy Quicken's method of storing data. iBank has made a mistake here in implementing transfers in a different way. Nothing wrong with that, unless you want to import your Quicken data...

- It is very hard to leave a program you are so used to, even when you want to. I've used Excel for so many years I've found it nearly impossible to keep going in Numbers. I want the same menus, the same keyboard shortcuts...

- With all the development necessary for a 1.0, it will cost more than Quicken (which has volume and past development to build on, not to mention no support costs because Intuit just doesn't bother)... A LOT MORE.

There is a way to develop a new PF app for the Mac... focus on writing a 1.0 that is essentially a Quicken clone. Do what Quicken does with a different interface and better support (ANY support is better!). THAT will get the Quicken users. Innovations will come in later releases.

MS Word for Windows had compatibility modes for WordPerfect users, to get them to stick with MS Word even if they were used to WordPerfect. This might be necessary to get Quicken users past the evaluation period.

While I'd love to see Omni in this area, I can see why they're not there. iBank is making a gamble, and it's promising...

[chinarut]

hey - it's good to see this thread going - I was considering making the jump later this year after the Quickin 2008 rewrite announcement I read the other day.

I'm going to contribute to this thread from a different front - i am a MS Money user since the mid 90s who never found Quicken to stick in the past - even to this day, I have Parallels running just to use Money and would love to get rid of this dependency. (just like I have migrated to OmniFocus to get rid of my Outlook GTD Add-in dependency!)

I am not a diehard user of Quicken nor am I intimate with what is going to be released in the 2008 version.

I have a request that the "Lifetime Planner" and all the components it depends on (ie. Debt Planner) be part of OmniBank - it's a pretty sophisticated modeler that made me realize last week budgeting is the least of my concerns!

my 2 cents

[jim lee]

An idea for those of you with the highest level of frustration here. Its not all that tough, if you really know what you want, to "roll your own" application like this using Filemaker. Banking s-ware is basically just exercising data and pushing numbers here and there. Filemaker is great at doing stuff like this.

Might be worth a try? Maybe you could get it polished to a point where you could hand it off to the Omni group with "Here, this is what we want". They could rewrite in c++ and package it.

Or not..

-jim lee

[sgiovannini]

I've tried to "roll my own" although not in FileMaker, which I don't have. I'm a Windows developer, though I use Macs mostly. So I started one using MS SQL Server. There was a lot more work than I anticipated. I had to program transfers, splits, split transfers, scheduled transactions and forecasts. I never got as far as a GUI and I had no intention (nor the capability) of including online banking.

It's harder than you think!

[pjb]

I'm going to take back what I wrote earlier in this thread. I've been trying the latest iBank and an app that just did what that one claims to do would be a fine tool indeed. Isn't really just about a good interface to core data? Unfortunately, iBank is not reliable—there must be some bad code between the interface and the database, something Omni would never do. If a small shop can get that far in producing something so many are clamoring for then the Omni folks could keep a narrow focus on a self contained app but do it right. Automatic downloading from banks is not a requirement for me since half of my accounts have to be exported from their website's anyway. I would easily pay the price of an OmniFocus for this kind of app, even though the tool is actually much simpler.

[mhelke]

The lack of a reliable piece of personal finance software for the Mac represents a serious gap as well as a significant opportunity.

Those who never record a transaction in a foreign currency can possibly make do with Quicken, though the Mac version draws a lot of criticism. Others, for instance anyone who has used a credit card abroad, will not be served. This is even more true of anyone who uses multiple currencies on a regular basis, e.g. many business travelers, expatriates, person living and working close to the border with Canada and Mexico, many Brits, Swiss and other Europeans not in the Euro zone, etc.

The only existing package that comes close is Liquid Ledger www.liquidledger.com, a severely under-resourced product by an individual developer. This package has improved over time under the prodding of a number of dedicated users. Still, for now it only meets basic requirements. Besides, there are performance issues and the latest release is so full of bugs that most users seem to shun it. Alas, the developer now seems to have abandoned the product altogether. With the exception of four posts in October, he has not posted to the user forum since early June 2008, leaving many users in the lurch. In addition, several updates he announced are still pending.

As far as I know, Liquid Ledger is the only product with a data model that will support the functionalities required by anyone using multiple currencies. To the best of my knowledge, it is the only product on any platform to do so. In particular, the multi-platform Moneydance, its nearest rival, will not. Thus with good support Liquid Ledger has the potential for providing Mac users with a personal finance package that will satisfy even the needs of those with multi-currency requirements. At the same time, in view of the absence of any comparable product regardless of platform, it could provide a competitive advantage to the Mac.

There may be an opportunity to buy out the developer - rather than starting over again from scratch - given that he has apparently abandoned his product. In any case, there is an unsatisfied demand within the Mac community for a good personal finance package, in particular one capable of handling multiple currencies.

The Omni Group ought to consider the business case for addressing this need.

Originally Posted by mhelke

The lack of a reliable piece of personal finance software for the Mac represents a serious gap as well as a significant opportunity.

...

The only existing package that comes close is Liquid Ledger www.liquidledger.com, a severely under-resourced product by an individual developer. This package has improved over time under the prodding of a number of dedicated users. Still, for now it only meets basic requirements. ...

As far as I know, Liquid Ledger is the only product with a data model that will support the functionalities required by anyone using multiple currencies. ...

There may be an opportunity to buy out the developer - rather than starting over again from scratch - given that he has apparently abandoned his product. In any case, there is an unsatisfied demand within the Mac community for a good personal finance package, in particular one capable of handling multiple currencies.

The Omni Group ought to consider the business case for addressing this need.

I could not agree more!

I have been using Liquid Ledger for over 4 years now, and due its persistent lack of support have reluctantly decided to move on to another Personal Finance software. In the past 7 months I have checked out, tried out almost every PF software I could find on the Net, except Quicken of course, which I won't even consider, for its lack of multi-currency support. Unfortunately, I could not find a piece of software, which could meet the features Liquid Ledger has; with all its flaws it remains the best piece of PF software in the market.

Recently I have purchased OmniFocus and I have become an absolute fan of it! It is now one of my "always on" applications together with iCal and Mail, when I'm working on my Mac. If Omni Group should develop and put out a PF software with similar features as Liquid Ledger (double entry, multiple currencies, import and report capabilities), I would certainly not think twice in buying it. As a matter of fact, as mhelke suggested, buying out Liquid Ledger could be an extraordinary opportunity to enter this market, at maybe a lower investment rate than developing a software from scratch.

So, give it a thought, will you?