[JKT]

Originally Posted by Drayon

Hey Forest, since you are pretty much the ONLY proponent AGAINST horizontal Top of Window Tabs<snip>?

He isn't. Case against:

1. How many tabs do I have open? Is it 6 or is it 60?
Safari:

Firefox:


2. What is the difference/similarity between all those tabs - is the Untitled page the same in each or different?

3. Why do the tabs constantly change size depending on how many I have open and therefore mess with my mousing memory?

4. How do I quickly scan through all those tabs to find out what their content is?

5. Which of those tabs have I looked at since they loaded, which haven't I looked at?

6. Which ones can I close because I don't need them anymore, which ones should I leave open?

7. How do I even close any of the tabs that have dropped off the screen into the side menus and are no longer occupying the tab bar?

Personally, I think the people who constantly bring up the few flaws in the vertical thumbnail tabs are far guiltier of ignoring the several horrible usability flaws in horizontal tabs. Putting it simply, horizontal tabs eat donkey's balls in terms of usability. The only advantage they have is size, but that is also their biggest flaw as well, as amply demonstrated above. The only people for whom horizontal tabs are remotely useful are those that only ever have up to six to eight pages open at any one time, and if you are one of those people, then OmniWeb is likely to be overkill for you anyway.

Finally,

8. Why is it that everyone who complains about the size of the drawer never, ever bother to try making it smaller?

[JKT]

Originally Posted by Drayon

The tab orientation screws up the page up/down arrow key commands we are used to in Camino, Safari, iCab and god knows what other browser. In this browser it selects tabs, well in other browsers selecting tabs is Command+shift+arrow left/right. On this issue if you are a powerbook user you cannot use 1 single hand to move from page top/bottom. You need to use 2 hands, one on the 'fn' key the other on the arrow up/down unless of course you have hands the size of an Abominable Snowman ;-)

Command-up. Command-down. (Gosh, logical isn't it!)
Spacebar, shift-spacebar. (Standard in Safari and Firefox too)

The thing is the Horizontal top of browser Tabs is a time proven method, it doesn't require a different method just to be different much like the start button in windows so why bother implementing and wasting so many resources designing an inferior poorly thought out concept with other things just work better.

Horizontal tabs are a time-proven crap UI, with a poorly thought out inferior design.

Hey, expressed like that, does it sound like an over-opinionated one-sided view to anyone else?

[Handycam]

Well put JKT. Good examples for why the tab drawer is better UI.

But I'm tired of this whole discussion: Omniweb is a browser which has a drawer with thumbnails of your open tabs (which can be switched to text).

If you don't like that, there are other browsers to use. No one is forcing you to use OW. And many of those who have sought out OW, and paid for it, do so because we like its differences and find its UI and feature set superior to other choices.

[d00d]

Allow me to break this down for all those so against horizontal tabs.

1. We are aware of the problems with horizontal tabs. We don't care.
2. Some of use have smaller screens (I use a Powerbook 12"). Complaining to websites that use 1024 width pages is NOT a solution.
3. We're not asking for it in addition to the tab drawer. It's a subjective preference. GET OVER IT.

Let me tell you from personal experience that I like the tab drawer just fine on my Mac Pro. It's not perfect, but I am warming up to it. The tab drawer is simply not feasible for use on my Powerbook. It's never going to be. Ever. I'm not being stubborn. It's a fact.

I'm going to submit my request to feedback, but I felt compelled to respond. The attitude of the regulars here towards those wanting horizontal tabs was a bit rude. Heck, I could live with OmniWeb style tabs if they were contained in a horizontal drawer.

My two cents. Feel free to rail against me and tell me my personal preference is wrong.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by d00d

1. We are aware of the problems with horizontal tabs. We don't care.

Wow, talk about a rash generalization. I just skimmed back over this thread. The reason I asked so many questions was because I was trying to figure out the exact issues just in case there was another way to solve the original issue. I wouldn't dare make the assumption that everyone who posts here knows every last detail.

2. Some of use have smaller screens (I use a Powerbook 12").

I do too.

Complaining to websites that use 1024 width pages is NOT a solution.

Actually it is. Having run many large web sites over the years, including a few you've probably been to, I can tell you first-hand that if we get enough feedback on a particular topic we will make a change. Or get fired, one of the two. ;) Sites like the NYT have too broad of an audience to assume that they're not leaving a substantial portion of their audience out with such a decision. If it was adobe.com, that's a different story.

The attitude of the regulars here towards those wanting horizontal tabs was a bit rude.

Here's a good article for you: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,70179-0.html

Studies show, that 70-90% of communication is lost when communicating via plain text. In other words, when one tries to infer the meaning from a plain text message, they only have 10-30% of the information needed to properly do so.

With that all said, I think Lens said it best with:

Originally Posted by Len Case

You know, I don't have a problem with horizontal tabs--but doing them would take time away from something else. Everyone has their own pet peeve: for example, Forrest would rather we add back sizes next to images in the page info (among other things). He has even gone so far as to revert back to 5.1.3 because for him 5.5 is too much of a step back.

But where is our time best spent. Right now I think getting betas of 5.5.1 with the improvements to WebKit is probably the best use of our time. After that, fixing the regressions caused by the update (auto-complete and zoomed editing so far) as well as working on the regressions of 5.5 compared to 5.1 (such as the missing image sizes). Then going back and hitting the worst of the issues from before 5.5.

This particular issue might fall into that third category.

[d00d]

Originally Posted by Forrest

Wow, talk about a rash generalization. I just skimmed back over this thread. The reason I asked so many questions was because I was trying to figure out the exact issues just in case there was another way to solve the original issue. I wouldn't dare make the assumption that everyone who posts here knows every last detail.

As a person who is fan of horizontal tabs in some situations and you're not, I think I'm better prepared to identify with those individuals. Besides, JKT was perfectly happy to lump us all together and make all kinds of assumptions about us.

I do too.

Terrific, then maybe you know what I'm talking about.

Actually it is. Having run many large web sites over the years, including a few you've probably been to, I can tell you first-hand that if we get enough feedback on a particular topic we will make a change. Or get fired, one of the two. ;) Sites like the NYT have too broad of an audience to assume that they're not leaving a substantial portion of their audience out with such a decision. If it was adobe.com, that's a different story.

Well, it's not a solution because:
1. It requires me to repeatedly write emails day in and day out.
2. You even say that not all websites are going to bend to my will.

Here's a good article for you: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,70179-0.html

Studies show, that 70-90% of communication is lost when communicating via plain text. In other words, when one tries to infer the meaning from a plain text message, they only have 10-30% of the information needed to properly do so.

I'm not misinterpreting the arrogance in JKT's post. He's calling people that simply want horizontal tabs in ADDITION to the current style "guiltier" of ignoring flaws in horizontal tabs, as if the fact that we're fine with those issues is a bad thing. He then said felt compelled to make a crude statement about horizontal tab usability, completely ignoring that for many users (as evidenced by this thread and most discussions about OmniWeb outside of these forums) horizontal tabs are much more usable than OmniWeb tabs. A large part of usability is in subjective use.

With that all said, I think Lens said it best with:

I can read, and it's pretty insulting to requote that passage as if I can't. Further, what Len said doesn't change the attitude clouding this forum, nor does it change out desire to have the feature added. He merely made a commentary on priority and where in the timeline it would be likely to take place. It doesn't try to find some kind of flaw in the desire as you passively (by asking what the issue is) and JKT actively (by trying to perform some "objective" proof about the usability) did.

Can't it just be as simple as some of us not being the biggest fans of the tab drawer in all cases and desiring a different implementation of the same idea?

[JKT]

I guess my irony and sarcasm wasn't as obvious as I thought it would be. I was deliberately being arrogant and over-opinionated as the person I was responding to was being the same.

Hey, expressed like that, does it sound like an over-opinionated one-sided view to anyone else?

I thought that would have been enough...

[begemotik]

Hello,

At first I did not like the vertical-tab feature, and I'm running a 19" LCD.

After about one day, however, I became quite used to it, especially when I "open in new tabs" one of my 23 tab bookmarks.

Having the option for users to switch between horizontal and vertical tabs might be something the good folks at Omni could put on their "To Do" list, if they wish. All of this bickering and attitude "copping," however, really serves little purpose.

Regards,
Jim

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by begemotik

All of this bickering and attitude "copping," however, really serves little purpose.

QFE .

[forum member]

I prefer vertical tabs.

That said, I have the tab drawer button on my toolbar, and for some sites, I click it so that tab drawer disappears.

Probably not a solution for die-hard horizontal-tab fans, but something you can use in the meantime.