[akatsuki]

Originally Posted by Agnostus

That sounds too familiar to me. Now, I am not an experienced OO user, but I find myself often in the situation where it seems the easiest ways to remove all styles and start all over - which is tedious. Omni might want to try to do something for the more casual users here, or: try to get better introductory documentation, as discussed in a thread in the OmniGraffle forums (I think its called "OmniGraffle the definitive guide")

I find styles absolutely impossible to use properly and automatic level styles are beyond just annoying. I generally just try and remember to turn off styling and then style at the end.

The system just doesn't work elegantly and never gives you a clue what the hell is going on. Pages really does have a better system.

Frankly using styles in Omnioutliner makes me want a different product.

[WrongSizeGlass]

I too find OOP's implementation of styles to be painfully unintuitive.

Styles acts like toggle switches - applying a style again removes its attributes (if they have not been changed by another style).

Styles are also cumulative - they do not override any attributes not specifically defined in that style, so you never know what you are going to get when applying one to any text that may already have other style attributes.

Also, choosing a style from the popup menu in the ruler can act differently than choosing a style from the Utility Drawer. That doesn't help the situation.

Styles in OOP are frustrating at best.


James B

[DerekM]

Ok, I'm going to take a stab at this and this hopefully clarify many things and generate ideas and solutions to make the style system better for you. Although remember in general, if you have a feature request, please send it by email, omnioutliner@omnigroup.com or from the Help -> Send Feedback from the OmniOutliner help menu.

[DerekM]

Originally Posted by gryphonent

Working with styles in Omni Outliner remains aggravating. Disabling the “Automatic Level Style” doesn’t really help as it seems to be “on” by default for every new document.

You can turn off Automatic Level Style by editing the default template.
OmniOutliner -> Preferences -> General tab -> Edit New Document Template
Turn off Automatic Level Style from the Format menu and save the file.
Now all new documents made from the template will have Automatic Level Style turned off by default.

Originally Posted by gryphonent

The way your program handles styles is too complex for users... I think Pages is taking the lead when it comes to simplicity. I’d love to mark “all level 2 rows” then call up the font menu and make changes that are instantly translated onto all level 2 rows. The marker changes to red on the “all level 2 rows button” and I can decide whether to save that change. Keep it simple and stupid.

Here's how you do this, and I think it's pretty straight forward.
http://forums.omnigroup.com/attachme...1&d=1152911742

[DerekM]

Originally Posted by gryphonent

Hmm... I just thought the same. I think the main problem is —at least to me — that OO is forcing upon the general user an approach that is totally different from the way other apps are handling styles. And I’m not sure if it is for the better.

How is it totally different? Aside from a different interface, what exactly is confusing you? It may be that you are experiencing some bugs that we're working.

[DerekM]

Originally Posted by bashosfrog

I may be missing the entire point here, but I pretty much ignore Styles view for mass changes and just use the Utilities panel. ie. Select "All Level 2 Rows" in the lower window (OO clicks into Styles View), then make changes in Inspector = all Level 2 rows changed as expected.

I don't really "get" Styles View either. Not for everyday use. But I haven't needed to use it in order to set up OO documents of stunning style :-)

Styles View is another way of representing the styles applied to each row. I will agree that it can be confusing, but you can do everything with styles without using it.

[WrongSizeGlass]

Although remember in general, if you have a feature request, please send it by email, omnioutliner@omnigroup.com or from the Help -> Send Feedback from the OmniOutliner help menu.

Derek,
I've sent in several requests and comments regarding the Styles to the email address since I purchased OOP v3.0.3 (back in Sept '05).

It's almost maddening when using the Style popup in the Ruler and having it not work the same way as the Inspector (or sometimes not even holding the style attributes). Getting those two to work the same would be a step in the right direction.

If I want a simple style for the text, I type it in TextEdit and then paste it into OOP.


James B

[DerekM]

Originally Posted by ksg

I agree that it is far from intuitive. And as for removing all styles and starting over, it's often not possible to do that: my experience is that if an outline originated as a .rtf file, for example, it seems to inherit some fonts and sizes and weights that you have to change one entry at a time. Tedious hardly begins to describe it. Just Selecting All and setting the font doesn't seem to work.

So one thing that might not be clear to everyone is that the styles have a hierarchy structure. Explained in the help file under "Style hierarchy". What is likely happening when you import/paste text that has formatting applied to it, is that those styles are brought in as applied on one of the top two levels depending on the format.

The hierarchy:
Text insertion
Whole row
Level groups
Column
Whole document

Styles defined in one level of the hierarchy will overwrite any conflicting styles of the levels below it. So if you had font size 14 applied to the whole document and then applied font size 8 at text insertion, the text would be size 8.

You can see the style attributes and the hierarchy of the selected text in the Style Attributes inspector. Styles at the top of the list overwrite styles below if they conflict.

This is how all other style systems I can think of work in general, you just might not see the hierarchy laid out for you.

What I think confuses people is when you want to overwrite existing styles in groups instead of adding to the current style.

A simple way to erase any styles that you brought in with text is to highlight those rows and then Format -> Clear Style.

It is possible to apply a style and have it complete overwrite all style of the same level and below. You can do that by dragging the style from the style palette and hold down the command button. (You will notice if you don't hold down the command button, a plus sign will appear indicating you are adding that style) This won't however overwrite styles applied above that level, in this case, the text insertion level.

I understand parts of this functionality can prove confusing at first, but it is quite logical to me anyways. What you want to avoid doing is applying styles at the text insertion level if possible as should you decided you want to change them all, it could prove tedious. The style system is powerful if used properly.

[DerekM]

Originally Posted by akatsuki

I find styles absolutely impossible to use properly and automatic level styles are beyond just annoying. I generally just try and remember to turn off styling and then style at the end.

Automatic style does cause some odd behavior. It's functionality is being reviewed for 4.0.

What the Automatic level style feature does, is when you individually apply a style to to a whole outliner level, that style will be automatically promoted to the "All level x rows" style. So say you create a new document with 1 row and color the text red. As it currently is, all level 1 rows in the document has red text. So the automatic level style feature promotes the red color to the "All level 1 rows" style. If you made a document with 2 level 1 rows and only colored the text of the first row red, the red style attribute is applied only to the first row.

[DerekM]

Originally Posted by WrongSizeGlass

Styles acts like toggle switches - applying a style again removes its attributes (if they have not been changed by another style).

Yes, this is true, if you use the hot keys for apply styles, you can apply it and unapply it. Can you give me a situation where this causes a problem?

Originally Posted by WrongSizeGlass

Styles are also cumulative - they do not override any attributes not specifically defined in that style, so you never know what you are going to get when applying one to any text that may already have other style attributes.

Yes, they are cumulative, but if you pay attention to your style hierachy it behaves exactly as you would expect. You can override attributes by command-dragging the style and applying it that way. How would you like it work?

Originally Posted by WrongSizeGlass

Also, choosing a style from the popup menu in the ruler can act differently than choosing a style from the Utility Drawer. That doesn't help the situation.

Yes, we are aware the rule styles behave differently. The ruler was made to mimic Apple's that is used in TextEdit which may or may not have been the best idea. But, all the style options from the ruler can be done from the apperance inspector.