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Hi!
I think MacBerry made some good points about areas where OF could improve.

I've been using Inbox extensively for quite some time before switching to OF. I switched because although i loved the Inbox Workflow and interface, the app was very buggy and code maintenance was & is next to catastrophic. I'm still monitoring MIs news but gave completely up on using the app.

MacBerry identified several points i loved in MI and still miss in OF.
- Automatic collection
- Inbox processing workflow
- Review workflows

It has been discussed here that automatic collection is not suited for everyone. I found it to be very useful but when it hiccuped and i had 400+ spam mails in my inbox it was a hard time :-). I can see the rather restrictive approach is not suitable for everyone but please take into account that that feature is optional. Furthermore it _is_ nice to have everything new on your Mac turn up automatically in your inbox for processing.

Besides the auto-collect feature:

I'd like to get more opinions on the processing & review points. I liked the way MI took my (newbie-)hand and guided me throught the workflows. I really missed this in OF and felt completely left out in the open in the beginning. After some learning OF works nicely for me now but still a guiding processing feature would help in these tasks i think. Why did i like MIs workflows:
- Focus on the thing at hand (when working through my inbox i see only one item and i have all steps for processing this item right at hand. There is no list with 20+ other items that discracts me in that moment)
- All tools in one view when processing/reviewing (In OF i sometimes have to mouse-move between the current items line in the main window and the inspector in order to change something (e.g. processing interval), in MI this was much faster and nicer as the corresponding UI elements could be tabbed and where positioned closely together in the process/review workflow view)
- Using a special "workflow" view for processing/reviewing put me in a different state of mind and focused on these steps (I got less distracted by seeing some action in the list that hooked me on thinking about it. This happens quite often for me with OF. However this may be a very individual perception on my side)

That said even MIs workflows where not perfect, so there's plenty of improvements possible either way... :-D

What do you guys think think about distinctive Process/Review views as in MI?

Cheers
Silvan
 
I have note used Inbox, but have read GTD twice, listened to it twice more, read his followup book, bought some of his audio recordings and generally immersed myself into the whole GTD thing. Been using OmniFocus for a year and a half and Kinkless before that.

For me, the zen of GTD, is that you shouldn't be thinking about GTD. You should just be doing. Tools shouldn't force you through things, but help you but mostly stay out of your way.

Let the mind do the work it does the best and let the GTD application just supplement that, providing value where the mind is weak.

BZ
 
Well-said, BZ. I hadn't really thought about it, but now that you mention it, I'm in complete agreement.
-Dennis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BwanaZulia View Post
I have note used Inbox, but have read GTD twice, listened to it twice more, read his followup book, bought some of his audio recordings and generally immersed myself into the whole GTD thing. Been using OmniFocus for a year and a half and Kinkless before that.

For me, the zen of GTD, is that you shouldn't be thinking about GTD. You should just be doing. Tools shouldn't force you through things, but help you but mostly stay out of your way.

Let the mind do the work it does the best and let the GTD application just supplement that, providing value where the mind is weak.

BZ
Which is exactly what worked like a charm in MI because it led me throught the process. In OF i had to sit down and manually model my review process, model my perspectives for that, etc. :-)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quorcork View Post
Which is exactly what worked like a charm in MI because it led me throught the process. In OF i had to sit down and manually model my review process, model my perspectives for that, etc. :-)
Precisely. It could very well be that I'll get there eventually with OF, but for now it's all taking way too much thought. And some of that thought is not simple "what's next" in the workflow, it's "what have I forgotten", which couldn't be more un-GTD I think.

Mostly it relates to collection, but also processing. In MI, within minutes, I'd lost the feeling that I was forgetting to chuck something into my inbox. All right, so it came back again very quickly because the code wasn't working 100%, but obviously we wouldn't have that issue with OG now would we ;)

So if nothing else I'd like more automatic collection options, to cover bookmarks, files, e-mails, notes, iCal events and todo's, and, well, anything else I might have to manually check otherwise.

I'm sure it's all scriptable, but I don't know how to script (yet)!

Mark
 
MacBerry, it sounds like you just need to define your system better and as others have pointed out, one you have done that your need to have your hand held, will diminish.

Here is what I do, take what you need from it.

Inboxes: Physical, OmniFocus, Email, Email Flagged, Evernote, iPhone Notes

Everything can go into one of those buckets and during my weekly review (in OmniFocus as a re-occuring weekly project) I have a task for each one of those "Clear out inbox. Clear out flagged email folder. Clear out iPhone notes. Review Evernote". So in that way, OmniFocus is holding my hand, telling me what to do for each part of my weekly review.

I also have tasks in my Weekly Review for "Review previous calendar." and "Review upcomming calendar." I don't need the application to actually BRING me to the calendar, just a reminder to do it. Again, let the app be the hub, but let each individual application do its thing (like iCal).

I don't review bookmarks as part of my weekly review. They are not storage devices. If I want to send a bookmark into my GTD queue I use ToodleDo and send it to my OF Inbox.

I also don't review "files". That is like reviewing "My world" too big. If anything needs review I will put a task in there.

Here is my Weekly Review in OmniFocus today:

- Sync with Toodledo @ OmniFocus
- Get OmniFocus inbox to zero @ OmniFocus
- Get mail inbox to zero @ Email
- Empty flagged email folder @ Email
- Get desk inbox to zero @ Home
- Empty iPhone notes @ Mac
- Review Evernote @ Mac
- Review past calendar @ Mac
- Review upcoming calendar @ Mac
- Reviwe pending projects @ OmniFocus
- Review on hold projects @ OmniFocus
- Review waiting for list @ OmniFocus
- Review agendas @ OmniFocus
- Review SalesForce oppurtunities @ SalesForce
- Review all project folders @ OmniFocus
- Flag must dos for next week @ OmniFocus

After that I am pretty much done. The flagged email folder is just a Smart Folder of flagged emails which I flag while processing my email during the week.

Anyway, that is my way.

BZ
 
Thanks BZ. I'm kind of doing the same thing in a far less sophisticated way - I have recurring actions that act as reminders to check various physical inboxes, with some of those having links to the relevant app/folder. But I guess I feel like I'm collecting twice: things turn up in the various physical inboxes, and then get moved manually into the OF inbox, with inevitable thinking done on the way.

That doesn't sit well with my understanding of Allen's process. I should offer the caviat that I haven't finished the book yet, but when he talks about initially setting up GTD, he literally has his client grabbing everything and putting it into his inbox pile, without thinking about each item as it goes in - that's for later.

I don't want to process things on their way into my inbox, or there's no point in having one. I want to process things on their way out of it.

I'm struggling to see why the OF inbox should be treated any differently from Allen's physical one, into which everything goes unprocessed.

I imagine that if I was running a paper based GTD system, my physical inbox would accept stuff from anywhere - including stuff others chuck into it, and the processing (including a lot of trashing) would happen as I emptied it, and that's what I want my OF inbox to be (within reason - there's no reason not to take advantage of the tools a digital inbox can offer, such as filtering etc).

At present, I look in Mail, for example, and think about each message - "does that want to go into OF? Or can I do it in less than 2 minutes? Or is it trash? Reference? Delegate?". If I'm doing that, I may as well apply the diagram at the beginning of the thread to it there and then, in which case, what's the point of the OF inbox? Why not put things directly into a project and context etc?

The point of it is to collect things ahead of processing I guess, and if that's it's point, then it should collect everything! See my sig - if I've been forced to make a choice (does it go into inbox or not), I've had to make a choice, and so can't claim not to have done any choosing (processing)!

The only things in my OF inbox that feel like they really should be there are todo's that turn up from my wife when I sync iCal. Everything else feels like it's there because that's what I should be doing to avoid having Allen slap my wrists; "Oooh, new e-mail. I know what project and context that's to go in, as well as it's due date, good. Oh no, hang on, I cant add those to it now because that'd be naughty - I have to do that as I take it out of my inbox". Talk about turning a one step process into a two step one!

For each of your physical inboxes, why not just have a reminder to check them, and when you do, put each item directly onto the relevant list? Why take stuff out of one inbox and put it into another, only to take it out again and put it onto a list? Maybe you don't, but if you don't, what's the point of the OF inbox? If each of your physical inboxes could instead be combined into just one inbox, wouldn't that be better, and more GTD?

So what am I asking for? Don't know specifically, but either; something along the lines of the clip-o-tron, but with questions asked so that the item can go onto the right list without going via another inbox (OF's), or a way to automatically get everything into the OF inbox so I can process it on the way out, not the way in.

"Questions" doesn't have to mean something wizard like, though that's what I'd like. It could just be fields to fill in on a form.

Mark

Last edited by MacBerry; 2008-08-26 at 11:28 AM..
 
A large portion of this whole debate is about granularity.
Where on the scale of granularity do you place yourself?
This can be a hard question and the answer is different depending on your needs. (Is this useful or silly to put into OF.)

Automatic inbox collection represents super high granularity. I just feel that it would not work for me as I have a ton of stuff moving in and out of my computer on a daily basis. Others might benefit from it or I might benefit from parts of it.

Consider this however; emptying the inbox is a mentally challanging task. It forces me to think about the structure and nature of things. I sometimes find myself subconsciously avoiding it; and I don't usually have a lot of items in there, 5-10 per day at the most.
If I'm this lazy now - I can't imagine what automatic collection would do to me...

Another thing: Sometimes I just knock off tasks directly from my inbox without entering them into the system. Works fine for a lot of tasks...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by colicoid View Post
A large portion of this whole debate is about granularity.
Where on the scale of granularity do you place yourself?
This can be a hard question and the answer is different depending on your needs. (Is this useful or silly to put into OF.)
Very good point, colicoid. I think I'm at about the same point as you on the granularity scale. Having everything that comes onto my Mac go into my OmniFocus inbox would be overwhelming for me. There's a lot of stuff (most of the stuff?) that simply doesn't need to go through that thought process in my system.

-Dennis
 
Yes I can see that. I don't have so many things coming at me on my computer that it'd be an issue: most "stuff" comes at me from outside the digital world.

Of course that both supports and destroys my argument. It makes it easier to manage, but at the same time is incapable of capturing "most" things that come at me. I think maybe I'm at a sweet point, where there's enough on my computer to need capturing, yet not so much that it's overwhelming.

But of course I wouldn't advocate an "all or nothing" approach anyway. Even MI, with all it's bugs, lets you decide on the granularity of it's auto-collection by choosing the time scale (new today, new this week etc), the location (little folder, whole computer, or somewhere between) and the type (you don't have to collect bookmarks, but you can if you want to).

I think if it were there and configurable, most users might use at least some automatic collection. I mean, the principal is accepted already through being able to get certain e-mails into OF automatically, and all I'm asking for is more of the same. Well OK, that's not all I'm asking for, but as a starting point...........

Mark

Last edited by MacBerry; 2008-08-26 at 02:26 PM..
 
 


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