[tah]

Originally Posted by whpalmer4

You say that like it is a bad thing, when in fact it is precisely why so many of us use Omni products!

No I state that, because products reflect their developers. I used to do R&D, and task lists were sufficient. Now I do consulting. Task lists that can't integrate with time scheduling aren't very useful. I hate it when people who peg everybody into their circumstance, rather than seeing the broader need.

Originally Posted by whpalmer4

Greg has asked the question, Ken (Omni CEO) has asked the question, I've asked the question, others have asked the question, but no one seems to have a useful answer to describe how OmniFocus actions should be mapped into calendar events, in general.

I think I gave a pretty clear explanation for mapping to a gantt chart. Calender events are simpler. This isn't that difficult. If its due on a date, put an event on the calender on that day. If it has a duration put it on the calender for that duration, if it doesn't use a default duration (15 min).

The important thing is that you can bring up a calender, and see what MUST be done today, this week, etc.

[whpalmer4]

Originally Posted by tah

No I state that, because products reflect their developers. I used to do R&D, and task lists were sufficient. Now I do consulting. Task lists that can't integrate with time scheduling aren't very useful. I hate it when people who peg everybody into their circumstance, rather than seeing the broader need.

Do you see yourself as a GTD practitioner, or something else?

Perhaps you need a different tool, built to suit your needs. The OmniFocus developers seem to have a pretty clear vision of what they want to provide, and it doesn't appear to include what you are asking. You did read the recent thread where they gave their reasoning, right?

I think I gave a pretty clear explanation for mapping to a gantt chart. Calender events are simpler. This isn't that difficult. If its due on a date, put an event on the calender on that day. If it has a duration put it on the calender for that duration, if it doesn't use a default duration (15 min).

Again, this doesn't adequately address Greg's question. I'll repeat it:

Originally Posted by Greg

I've also seen many people request the feature to sync action items to a calendar, but I've yet to see anyone describe just how it would/could work. If I have an action that I estimate will take 3 hours to complete, I can start it today at 8:00 and it is due no later than Friday at 5:00, how would that look on my calendar? With an alarm at 4:45 on Friday that it is due in 15 minutes and I haven't started it yet? At 2:00 on Friday (3 hours in advance) when I may not have the context available to work on it? Or will my calendar be blocked out from 8 today until 5 on Friday?

The important thing is that you can bring up a calender, and see what MUST be done today, this week, etc.

Bring up a context mode view, grouped by due, sorted by due, remaining actions. There's your list.

Neither this approach nor a calendar-based approach will be completely accurate with items that repeat within the scope of the view, however, as the future events don't appear in the database until the current one is completed.

[tah]

Originally Posted by whpalmer4

Do you see yourself as a GTD practitioner, or something else?

Really not sure what you getting at, sounds like a religious question. There is no conflict in needing to meet deadlines and GTD. And no I don't mean meetings, those are easily put into iCal directly. I'm talking about tasks with start or end dates.

I re-read the posts by the omni-folks and you are right: They are not planning on fixing omnifocus to provide time perspectives on the tasks or even the most basic syncing with iCal. It seems omnifocus will remain a half solution. It is not reasonable to separately enter due dates into iCal and omnifocus, and then deal with changing it in both places when they change. Ridiculous.

Omnifocus is personal project management, without the overhead of a program like omniplan. Maybe they can make omniplan lite, that works like omnifocus but can actually help PLAN things.

... going to look at other software with a complete solution

[Brian]

Originally Posted by tah

It is not reasonable to separately enter due dates into iCal and omnifocus, and then deal with changing it in both places when they change.

We would agree that it's not reasonable to enter the information into both places, and that's not what we recommend. Double-entry is just needless duplication. In our opinion, you should enter an action on your calendar or in OmniFocus; not both. Each tool can help you organize a certain type of task better than the other.

Hard landscape items go on the calendar, with the fuzzier, less-well-defined stuff sitting in OmniFocus to pull from as you're able. Check your calendar, and if it doesn't have anything for you, check OmniFocus. Splitting the info is counter-intuitive, but it really is more effective.

On a typical day, OmniFocus tells that I have anywhere from 10-20 actions due today. I really, really don't want those on my calendar. If they were, they would be piled up so deep that I'd never see which meetings or other events I needed to be at.

I sympathize to a degree with the folks that have a desire for all their information in one place; it's comforting, like chocolate and peanut butter. However, the reality - and we've looked at it a lot - is more of a floor-wax-and-dessert-topping kind of situation. You can do it, but it doesn't work out as well as you'd hope.

[Greg Jones]

Really not sure what you getting at, sounds like a religious question.

I wouldn't view it as a religious question, but rather as a means to identify what your perspective is with regard to task management. Some people come to GTD-inspired applications with no prior experience, or buy-in, of the GTD methodology and are often frustrated when they encounter what they perceive to be limitations of the particular application. That doesn't necessarily indicate that the user is wrong about their methodology, but it also doesn't necessarily indicate that the tool is flawed. What it does often mean is that either the user's methodology will need to be re-evaluated or the chosen tool will need to be re-evaluated.

Omnifocus is personal project management, without the overhead of a program like omniplan. Maybe they can make omniplan lite, that works like omnifocus but can actually help PLAN things.

and

I think I gave a pretty clear explanation for mapping to a gantt chart. Calender events are simpler. This isn't that difficult. If its due on a date, put an event on the calender on that day. If it has a duration put it on the calender for that duration, if it doesn't use a default duration (15 min).

In Getting Things Done the topic of formal planning and informal planning is specifically addressed. Allen stresses that the biggest potential for improvement using GTD "does not consist of techniques for the highly elaborate and complex types of project organizing that professional project managers sometimes use (like GANNT charts). Most of the people who need those already have them... The real need is to capture and utilize more of the creative, proactive thinking we do--or could do." (p. 211)

So while Allen (and I expect most of us that implement GTD) recognize that there is a need for formal planning planning with very specific timeline-specific actions, there is also the recognition that the value of GTD lies primarily with thought processes and actions that do not necessarily translate neatly into GANNT charts or time-bound slots on a calendar.

Speaking personally, when I was first exposed to GTD in 2002, I also equipped our somewhat small design department with FastTrack Schedule to manage our design projects. At the time, my lack of experience with both GTD and formal PM quickly revealed itself as I tried to force one tool to address both needs. It wasn't long before I learned to let the PM software help me execute the project while using GTD to inform my thinking about what I should be planning as well as the project-related loose ends that didn't necessarily fit neatly in the PM.

My responsibilities today do not require me to use a full-featured PM, but I still don't try and force one tool (OmniFocus) to manage all aspects of what I need to do to get thing done. Technology-related, I use OmniOutliner to plan much of the specifics of my projects. I use DEVONthink to capture project reference material. I use MailTags and Mail-Act-On to assist in getting email communications into OmniFocus and DEVONthink. I use iCal for all hard landscape related aspects of what I need to do, for all events (appointments and time-specific tasks) and I do not sync anything to iCal from OmniFocus. If I ever again need a heavyweight PM functionality, I'd probably take a look at OmniPlan.

So in the end, perhaps OmniFocus is not the right tool for what you want to accomplish. Or perhaps it could be one tool in your productivity toolbox should you decide to explore the GTD methodology further. If not, then at least recognize that just because the tool doesn't fit your needs does not mean that the tool is flawed or that the people that do find value with the tool must not have busy schedules and/or time-constrained tasks that need to get done.

[JKT]

Originally Posted by Brian

Hard landscape items go on the calendar, with the fuzzier, less-well-defined stuff sitting in OmniFocus to pull from as you're able. Check your calendar, and if it doesn't have anything for you, check OmniFocus. Splitting the info is counter-intuitive, but it really is more effective.

On a typical day, OmniFocus tells that I have anywhere from 10-20 actions due today. I really, really don't want those on my calendar. If they were, they would be piled up so deep that I'd never see which meetings or other events I needed to be at.

Given that this is now the official position for OmniFocus, couldn't you at least make it easier for us by adding an UI means of converting actions into iCal entries from within OF? E.g. a toolbar icon to remove and convert the action into an iCal event which allows you to input start and end times, whether it is an all day event and to add alarms. It is truly a pita to enter something in OF, realise at a later time that it should be in iCal and then have to do this manually (enter event in iCal then delete action in OF). It's pointless duplication of effort and needless switching between apps.

[tah]

Originally Posted by Brian

In our opinion, you should enter an action on your calendar or in OmniFocus; not both. Each tool can help you organize a certain type of task better than the other.

Hard landscape items go on the calendar, with the fuzzier, less-well-defined stuff sitting in OmniFocus to pull from as you're able. Check your calendar, and if it doesn't have anything for you, check OmniFocus. Splitting the info is counter-intuitive, but it really is more effective.

I agree for things that are by their nature different, like meetings, this is true. But for projects, with milestones or finish dates it is bizarre to try to manage the task and the event in two different pieces of software. I understand the ideal you are shooting for, because calenders don't capture well the nature of mosts tasks - but it is overly idealistic, and tries to wish away the reality of a third type of task: the task that is time associative.

I have 6 months of tasks in omnifocus, having something to do to use my time wisely is not the problem, knowing when to do it is.

How about this: you can leave omnifocus as-is for those who's brains would explode if they had spatial/time/gantt visualization of tasks. And for the rest of us who actually need to run our businesses and be responsive to clients rather than philosophize about the true nature of GTD: upgrade omniplan to have the more efficient omnifocus interface for entering tasks, contexts, ctl-option-space entry, and preferences for better (less hand-tweaking) automatic generation of the gantt timeline.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by tah

upgrade omniplan to have the more efficient omnifocus interface for entering tasks, contexts, ctl-option-space entry, and preferences for better (less hand-tweaking) automatic generation of the gantt timeline.

I know that more integration with OmniFocus is one of the things the OmniPlan team is looking to add in version 2 - if you send the things you'd like to see added to them at omniplan@omnigroup.com, they can take your feedback into account.

(Specifically, OP doesn't have any sense of contexts at the moment, so if you could let them know what you'd like to see added in that respect, I'm sure that would help them out.)

[Brian]

Originally Posted by JKT

ouldn't you at least make it easier for us by adding an UI means of converting actions into iCal entries from within OF?

This seems like it might be susceptible to an AppleScripted solution - I'll see if I can hack something together in the next couple of days. (Hooray for the ability to add an AppleScript to the toolbar, eh?)

I'd also encourage you to submit this as formal feedback from the help menu - I don't think we have any feature requests on file that come at the issue from this angle; so it would be useful to get into the development database 'for real'.

[Brian]

Heh, it turns out that a couple of folks already went the AppleScript route with this.

The relevant scripts are in this thread; check the end of the thread for the leopard-compatible revisions of the script. One script takes any actions you have selected and adds them to iCal when you run the script; the other moves any actions you have flagged over.

If you'd like to add the scripts to your OmniFocus toolbar, RobTrew helpfully wrote up some installation instructions in this one.

There's also a script in this thread which will scan OmniFocus periodically, adding all actions in a particular context to iCal as events.