[zxspectrum]

Originally Posted by zoltok

I do think that the design has some problem areas that I'd like to see improved.

*omnigroup is a good company! they make good apps that work! but they need to step up and realize that there is a new generation that is pushing forward..hard. so they have a choice - stay in the 90's or use your resources to move on.

and that's why the only logical design feedback = please hire a creative interface designer!

[Toadling]

I'm resistant to some of your suggestions, zotlok. Not that they're bad, quite the contrary, the ideas are good. And this sort of discussion should be encouraged. I'm just hoping OG doesn't make sweeping changes without careful consideration.

1. The overall look of the program doesn't gel with the new (finally) unified palettes of Leopard – in it's current state, OF looks like Mail.app on 10.4. Typography-wise, I wouldn't mind seeing the "Library" use the small-caps style of sections in Mail.app in 10.5, which would avoid the need for basic project folders to already be indented one level. Same for treatment of Contexts. Likewise, I'm really hoping that we use the same unified grey chrome that is standard on Leopard.

You don't mention what version you're using. Rev 96221 brings OF more into the Leopard fold. Are the new sidebar colors what you had in mind? And doesn't OF already use the standard gray chrome?

As for section headings, project folders are indented to make room for the disclosure triangles and folder icons. Are you suggesting doing away with those? Does the sidebar really even have any section headings? They're mostly content containers, except maybe for "Inbox" and "Library" (but Apple Mail doesn't consider its Inbox as a section heading either).

2. The "add action" and "Set Flag" buttons can align with the left of the actions panel, as they're actions that apply to tasks, not projects. Again, works a bit like mail on this one, that has the individual message action buttons above the viewing panel.

I think you're talking about the toolbar buttons here, right? In Apple Mail, placing the Flexible Space toolbar widget at the left-most edge of the toolbar (i.e. above the sidebar) causes the Flexible Space widget to consume exactly the same amount of horizontal space as the width of the sidebar. Yeah, that would be a nice addition to the OF toolbar.

4. The notes icon is way over on the right side of the screen, as is the flag icon. I would want these very important (and small screen-footprint) items to be on the left side, for easy access with my mouse.

I'm not sure I agree. The left side of an action is for the much more important row handle and completion checkbox. I see the note and flag toggle as being of much less importance and like them tucked out of the way on the right. So maybe this could be configurable, as it is in Apple Mail.

5. If I have a link in my task notes, it's hierarchy interferes with the actual task I'm supposed to be accomplishing, which should be front and centre. Notes should look and feel secondary to the task.

Notes used to be indented, but recently OG aligned them all the way to the left. I'm OK with it either way, I guess.

6. I am currently using what I consider to be hacks for a few things, and it seems a bit silly that there is no native support for these things: namely, a "Waiting For" context, general folders for my Work/Home life (as many of you are using) and a folder under each of those for Someday-Maybe. I would NEVER have known to use those hacks if I didn't read these forums constantly. Call me crazy, but I think it's possible there might be a more elegant way of solving these problems.

Hmm, again not sure if I agree, or maybe I just don't understand. How would adding in these sections/folders/contexts improve things over just making custom configurations as you're doing now? How is the custom configuration solution a "hack"? Isn't that why OF allows custom folders/contexts to begin with, to maintain flexibility for a large variety of workflows?

7. How about making the little coloured due today/soon numbers in the dock match the ones used for Mail? They're currently a little tiny and practically falling off my screen.

I kind of like the current Dock number badges; I think they're rather attractive and have no trouble seeing them on my hi-res 17" MBP. I don't think they need to be just like Mail's to be effective. OTOH, I guess I wouldn't mind if they matched Mail either.

8. Hate to say it as I've said it before but... I still think the view bar is awkward and in a weirdly unintuitive spot. The fact that they sortof-kindof look like column headings, and that they're all aligned horizontally... It just doesn't seem to reflect the logic of what they're actually sorting. Moreover, it seems having a series of dropdown menus there isn't best or only solution. I would explore the possibility of moving that whole view bar out of there entirely, and perhaps combining it + the perspectives window into a unified section that one can hide/view.

I felt the same way at first, until I got used to the View Bar. Now it feels natural to me. If somebody comes up with a better idea, however, I'm all for giving it a try.

[Bill Van Hecke]

Originally Posted by zoltok

1. The overall look of the program doesn't gel with the new (finally) unified palettes of Leopard – in it's current state, OF looks like Mail.app on 10.4. Typography-wise, I wouldn't mind seeing the "Library" use the small-caps style of sections in Mail.app in 10.5, which would avoid the need for basic project folders to already be indented one level. Same for treatment of Contexts. Likewise, I'm really hoping that we use the same unified grey chrome that is standard on Leopard.

We have just made a couple of changes to the colors we're using, to try to better fit in with Leopard apps, but keep in mind that OmniFocus is still supported on Tiger, and so we can't dive into full-on Leopard chrome and animation just yet. Certainly in the future, though. :D

As for the small-caps parent items in the sidebar, we have considered this but we want these top-level items to be selectable (and to have icons), so that you can easily get out of a specific selection and go back to seeing everything in the main content area. In other apps, small-caps parent items in source lists aren't selectable, and we didn't want to break that convention.

Originally Posted by zoltok

2. The "add action" and "Set Flag" buttons can align with the left of the actions panel, as they're actions that apply to tasks, not projects. Again, works a bit like mail on this one, that has the individual message action buttons above the viewing panel.

This is a good idea. I think Mail may be using some private code to make those toolbar items follow the sidebar width, but I'll certainly look into whether we can replicate that feature.

Originally Posted by zoltok

3. This is a tricky one but... each action item could have a bit more hierarchy punch to it, and in planning view, have a better visual relationship to the project name. To use an example: when I'm in the context section and I look at the first item in the list, it's a bit close to the top of the window, and is interfering visually with all that stuff at the top (the view bar, the sorting columns, etc). If I have OF set to only show me the next action, I want that next action to really stand out!! That's what this whole program is designed around, so it doesn't have to follow any kind of a plain list paradigm here!

Hmm, I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean by this one. Do you think you could put together a mockup of what you'd expect this to look like? By the way, you can put together a perspective with no sidebar, no view bar, and no toolbar, just containing your next actions in a very small window. Some people have also had success with using Anxiety as a super-simplified HUD for OmniFocus, which may help fill that need until we put in our own such view someday.

Originally Posted by zoltok

4. The notes icon is way over on the right side of the screen, as is the flag icon. I would want these very important (and small screen-footprint) items to be on the left side, for easy access with my mouse.

Yeah, we have debated a bit about where to put these icons; if we put them on the left, we run into some problems. One, if they exist to the left of the bullet they seem to be hierarchically superior to the item as a whole, rather than a part of it, and this compromises the importance of the bullet and the checkbox. Two, depending on how deep your hierarchy is, the note and flag could get pretty far away from the item itself, making it hard to see what goes with what. All that having been said, we do put the note column to the left in OmniOutliner, and it's not impossible that a future version of OmniFocus could make these columns movable.

Originally Posted by zoltok

5. If I have a link in my task notes, it's hierarchy interferes with the actual task I'm supposed to be accomplishing, which should be front and centre. Notes should look and feel secondary to the task.

Hmm, I think that the handle and the checkbox sticking out to the left of the task, combined with the comparative typographical diminutiveness of the note, give the note a pretty subordinate feel. Of course, we still need to add the feature for customizing the default note style, so maybe once that's in there you can adjust it to your liking.

Originally Posted by zoltok

6. I am currently using what I consider to be hacks for a few things, and it seems a bit silly that there is no native support for these things: namely, a "Waiting For" context, general folders for my Work/Home life (as many of you are using) and a folder under each of those for Someday-Maybe. I would NEVER have known to use those hacks if I didn't read these forums constantly. Call me crazy, but I think it's possible there might be a more elegant way of solving these problems.

Hmm, the "Blocks Next Action" setting in the Context inspector is supposed to be our native support for Waiting contexts, and the "On Hold" status for projects is supposed to be our native support for Someday/Maybe lists. Perhaps we need to point these out in a better way so that people realize what the "best practice" is for implementing GTD concepts.

Originally Posted by zoltok

7. How about making the little coloured due today/soon numbers in the dock match the ones used for Mail? They're currently a little tiny and practically falling off my screen.

Hmm, the size and positioning should be about the same as the badges in Mail; I'm not sure why they seem tiny or falling of the screen for you. If you could submit a screenshot maybe we can figure out some ways to improve them.

Originally Posted by zoltok

8. Hate to say it as I've said it before but... I still think the view bar is awkward and in a weirdly unintuitive spot. The fact that they sortof-kindof look like column headings, and that they're all aligned horizontally... It just doesn't seem to reflect the logic of what they're actually sorting. Moreover, it seems having a series of dropdown menus there isn't best or only solution. I would explore the possibility of moving that whole view bar out of there entirely, and perhaps combining it + the perspectives window into a unified section that one can hide/view.

We certainly do have a lot of view settings, and there is almost certainly a better way to present them. This is definitely something we're going to come back to as soon as we can.

Originally Posted by zoltok

Don't get me wrong, I think this is a great app that has loads of potential. I bought the thing yesterday! BUT, I do think that the design has some problem areas that I'd like to see improved.

I can't thank you enough for this concrete feedback. Pointing out specific areas that are bothering you is the best way to make sure our designs get better and better! Every one of your comments will get attention as we keep working on the interface. Thanks again for your post, and thanks very much for buying OmniFocus!

Edit: It looks like Toadling responded with almost the same comments I did. Thanks, Toadling. :D

[Toadling]

While we're on this meme of long lists of grievances, here are some of my initial impressions of Things (as compared to OmniFocus):

1. Overall, Things is a nice looking app, no doubt about it. But OmniFocus looks cleaner to me, less cluttered, and feels more intuitive. Maybe it's my OmniOutliner background, but I was immediately able to grasp the structure of my data in OF. Not so easily with Things. Even after tinkering for about an hour, I still felt a little uneasy looking at my data as it was presented in Things. Maybe it has something to do with no indentions, or project titles being center aligned, or all text auto-collapsing? It just doesn't feel right to me.
   
   
2. It seems Things doesn't allow projects to be duplicated - a bit frustrating.
   
   
3. Things doesn't allow entering more than one item at a time in its quick entry window. Grrr.
   
   
4. I don't quite grok the Focus "buckets" in the sidebar. It seems to be an elaborate "flagging" system, but I find it a little confusing. I'm not sure I like this approach. Just seems overly-complicated and requires an awful lot of dragging back and forth.
   
   
5. The People section in the sidebar is an interesting idea, and I especially like that it shows the person's current iChat status (slick!). But the containers behave inconsistently. For example, dragging a To Do from my Larry container into the Today container removes it from the Larry container rather than just flagging the task for today. Why? This doesn't seem to happen with the Projects container. I'm confused.
   
   
6. Archiving completed items in Things' Logbook isolates those actions from their projects, making it difficult to get a sense of what they are, where they came from, or what they relate to. In this respect, I think OmniFocus has a much better design (i.e. keeping completed items within their original context and controlling visibility with filters).
   
   
7. Conceptually, I understand the difference between Projects and "Areas", but is a separate container in the sidebar really necessary? What practical value does it bring?
   
   
8. Auto-collapsing of action text is nice, but I wish there was a way to turn it on/off like you can do in OmniFocus. And Things seems to only allow viewing one at a time. That's a problem.
   
   
9. Things apparently doesn't support nesting of any kind (projects, actions, or folders). I guess some organization can be achieved via tagging, which Things implements quite nicely. But I find it much easier to visualize and quickly review my data with a more spacial, hierarchical view (which OF really excels at thanks to its outliner heritage).

Things is still in alpha, so maybe some of these things will change before they release. But why not just use OF instead? :)

[djaneb]

Originally Posted by Toadling

I don't think you're talking about good design. You're looking for style, flare, or pizzaz. But those things don't necessarily equate to good design. In fact, I think too much glitz is bad design.

But it doesn't have to be "glitz". It just has to be a pleasure to work with - as someone said, make it work, then make it pretty.

It's about white space and fonts and borders and choices - not glitz. I've occasionally chosen applications which were a little weaker in design (not much, mind you) because they were a more pleasant experience to be in.

I think users should have choices about colours and fonts. That is the strength for me of Omnioutliner Pro - I can create templates with spacing and colours and fonts that make me feel positive about what I am doing. But even in that app the choices are limited and I find myself wanting to increase spacing and lessen the crowding. OmniFocus doesn't give me that positively aesthetic experience at the moment but I am sure that is where they are heading. It feels too crowded and - it is not the number of things in the list - I know that is the whole point - to concentrate on the filtered list in front of you. But it is looking crowded.

It's icons have no uniformity - it is like there are two styles - the boxy ones in the contexts/projects sidebar and toggle, and the other shadowed ones (which aren't proportioned properly to each other.)

Anyway, I'll still use it and have paid for it pre-release but hope it takes on a sleaker look with more user control.

Deb

[Craig]

Originally Posted by djaneb

I think users should have choices about colours and fonts.

Pointing this out because I think it's easily overlooked: default fonts and colors can be changed by choosing Format > Font > Show Fonts (or just Command-T). I abandoned Omni's Helvetica a long time ago, and I recently reinstated the italicization of blocked actions that they just removed. Colors are easily changed from that same panel. Control isn't complete nor completely satisfactory, but the user can change more of the look than some users may realize.

[Toadling]

Originally Posted by djaneb

It's icons have no uniformity - it is like there are two styles - the boxy ones in the contexts/projects sidebar and toggle, and the other shadowed ones (which aren't proportioned properly to each other.)

It's funny how opinions on such things can vary so widely. I've always considered myself rather picky (perhaps to a fault), but I don't have any problems with the icons. In fact, I think they're quite good.

So what disproportional, "shadowed ones" are you talking about? Are you comparing the sidebar icons to the toolbar icons?

[Ward]

Originally Posted by Craig

Pointing this out because I think it's easily overlooked: default fonts and colors can be changed by choosing Format > Font > Show Fonts (or just Command-T). ... Control isn't complete nor completely satisfactory, but the user can change more of the look than some users may realize.

I had a bad experience (black text on a black background), documented in the Beautiful color is in the eye of the beholder thread.

If your customization goes awry, Format > Clear Style can get you back.

[Ken Case]

Originally Posted by Ward

I had a bad experience (black text on a black background), documented in the Beautiful color is in the eye of the beholder thread.

This is fixed in the 96271 build (coming soon).

[djaneb]

Originally Posted by Toadling

It's funny how opinions on such things can vary so widely. I've always considered myself rather picky (perhaps to a fault), but I don't have any problems with the icons. In fact, I think they're quite good.

So what disproportional, "shadowed ones" are you talking about? Are you comparing the sidebar icons to the toolbar icons?

You're probably right. The problem isn't so much the icons themselves as the way they're arranged by default. I took a look at icons in other apps - how they looked together in the Customise menu and the Omnifocus ones aren't really any worse. I changed them around and added separators and they look better with some customisation. I also used the Font panel to change the font and backgrounds and have it looking more "me". But as someone noted, it's a bit half-baked and a little flaky. A preference pane dialogue would be better. I'd love to be able to specify white space - how much before and after a project, how much between items etc.

Anyway, this is all so personal, isn't it? I almost wished I hadn't joined the thread because it's so much easier to say what you don't like than to suggest an alternative. It's a bit like websites. But I can say that being a switcher one of the main things that lured me to the mac was that not only do I get the work done but I enjoy watching it happen - enjoy the elegant interface and clean lines.

Deb