[Forrest]

The NYT site is poorly done. At 1024x768 I can't even view it as full screen with the dock set to the side (even if it's small.)

Depending on the audience, I'm not against wide sites. But going to nearly the full 1024 wide is making too many assumptions. Amazon is more than 800px, but it still works with the tabs on the side and my dock on the side.

There are very few sites with which this is a problem. I would suggest contacting the site to let them know they've built it too wide.

[jphaag]

I recently switched from a 17" PB to a MacBook.
I just shrank the tab bar a bit and all is fine. And I even habe the habit of not expanding the OW window fully to the right edge of the screen, because I like to have the option to drag a link etc. to the desktop.

I can't stand the tab drawer either. It's the one and only thing about OW I really dislike. Even if I had a bigger screen (which I don't), I still wouldn't like it. All I want is the *option* to put the tabs in a horizontal bar across the top; the tab drawer can stay for those who like it.

I wrote to OW to voice my opinion and they said they have no plans to change it. :confused: Bummer.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by gvmelbrty

I can't stand the tab drawer either. It's the one and only thing about OW I really dislike. Even if I had a bigger screen (which I don't), I still wouldn't like it. All I want is the *option* to put the tabs in a horizontal bar across the top; the tab drawer can stay for those who like it.

I wrote to OW to voice my opinion and they said they have no plans to change it. :confused: Bummer.

So what is it you dislike about the tab drawer?

[Drayon]

Originally Posted by Forrest

So what is it you dislike about the tab drawer?

How much further detailed explanation do you need? Obviously nothing the thousands of ppl who HATE the drawer is NEVER going to change your stance an YOU sir will argue until you are blue in the face no matter how many ppl submit their dislikes to the drawer. I don't think any compelling argument from others about this tragic design will have ANY effect in your opinion.

Again my reasons are. I run on a powerbook, limited display space for 1. The browser window is placed to the right of my display,with 3 inches gap on the left of the display. This area is populated by my iChat user list, my proteus user list and my mail client and another browsers downloads window.

Tab thumbnail, i see absolutely NO point in this, for one only about 6 tabs in this view can be listed, secondly i cant even distinguish what is in the tab and 3 i only need to know the name of the site wich is clearly seen when the tabs are in list view. This is NOT a picture viewing application, which obviously large image thumbnails are useful, but this is web browser.

The tab orientation screws up the page up/down arrow key commands we are used to in Camino, Safari, iCab and god knows what other browser. In this browser it selects tabs, well in other browsers selecting tabs is Command+shift+arrow left/right. On this issue if you are a powerbook user you cannot use 1 single hand to move from page top/bottom. You need to use 2 hands, one on the 'fn' key the other on the arrow up/down unless of course you have hands the size of an Abominable Snowman ;-)

Back to space, if i have 5 tabs open set in list view the drawer extends to the entire length of the web browser in such case covering the entire left side of my screen with the actual list view of tabs only consumes maybe 2 inches max of space.

Now i close the stupid drawer to see what else is happening in my other apps, i switch back to the browser an create another tab an now the drawer automatically opens up again forcing me to close it again.

The thing is the Horizontal top of browser Tabs is a time proven method, it doesn't require a different method just to be different much like the start button in windows so why bother implementing and wasting so many resources designing an inferior poorly thought out concept with other things just work better. Now that the drawer is here an the hard work has been done im not saying scrap it an remove it. Just implement Horizontal Top of window Tabs to keep the rest of us happy. Hell if Alexander Claus the 'SOLE' iCab developer could implement Tabs in 1 week im sure the cocoa gurus at Omni could do the same.

Even the marketing team would have a field day, 'hey our browser offers tabbed browsing and goes way beyond the rest of the players in town we offer 2 choices to suit the most discerning users wanting the 'Ultimate browser'.

Horizontal re-orderable Top of Browser windows please.

Petition for this maybe in order or maybe just roll some stubborn heads at OmniG ;-) j/k'n

[Drayon]

Hey Forest, since you are pretty much the ONLY proponent AGAINST horizontal Top of Window Tabs why are you SO valiantly against the idea when all you would have to do is click on a check box in a preference pane to disable it? The inclusion of this new feature would have ZERO impact on you in reality. Now if you beloved Tab drawer was completely deprecated then id appreciate your strong motives.

But just don't get you :-(( Everyone has asked for this as an 'additional' feature.

[Forrest]

Wow. Let's recap what just happened. A user came in and posted his first (and thus far only) post:

Originally Posted by gvmelbrty

I can't stand the tab drawer either. It's the one and only thing about OW I really dislike. Even if I had a bigger screen (which I don't), I still wouldn't like it. All I want is the *option* to put the tabs in a horizontal bar across the top; the tab drawer can stay for those who like it.

I wrote to OW to voice my opinion and they said they have no plans to change it. :confused: Bummer.

All he expresses is a dislike but gives nothing objective to go on. So I think "well, maybe he's just having a hard time getting accustom to the graphical tabs and perhaps, if I knew the issue he was having, someone here could offer a tip that would help the guy out."

So I simply ask "So what is it you dislike about the tab drawer?"

Because, knowing this, someone here might be able to help. Or, perhaps he's discovered a bug that needs to be fixed.

Then you come in and post, starting with:

Originally Posted by Drayon

How much further detailed explanation do you need?

I intentionally quoted and replied to gvmelbrty. Why? Because I've seen your tirades where you dish out personal attacks, and I want to signify that I'm attempting to help this user.

Then you go on to attack me, attack the OG, and even go so far as to make stuff up to bolster your argument.

If you want to actually engage in a discussion with the users here and see what feedback they can give you to help you, don't insult them. If you just want your voice heard by the OG, you can use the Help > Send Feedback... option from within OW.

[Len Case]

You know, I don't have a problem with horizontal tabs--but doing them would take time away from something else. Everyone has their own pet peeve: for example, Forrest would rather we add back sizes next to images in the page info (among other things). He has even gone so far as to revert back to 5.1.3 because for him 5.5 is too much of a step back.

But where is our time best spent. Right now I think getting betas of 5.5.1 with the improvements to WebKit is probably the best use of our time. After that, fixing the regressions caused by the update (auto-complete and zoomed editing so far) as well as working on the regressions of 5.5 compared to 5.1 (such as the missing image sizes). Then going back and hitting the worst of the issues from before 5.5.

This particular issue might fall into that third category.

[Drayon]

Originally Posted by Forrest

Wow. Let's recap what just happened. A user came in and posted his first (and thus far only) post:

All he expresses is a dislike but gives nothing objective to go on. So I think "well, maybe he's just having a hard time getting accustom to the graphical tabs and perhaps, if I knew the issue he was having, someone here could offer a tip that would help the guy out."

So I simply ask "So what is it you dislike about the tab drawer?"

Because, knowing this, someone here might be able to help. Or, perhaps he's discovered a bug that needs to be fixed.

Then you come in and post, starting with:

I intentionally quoted and replied to gvmelbrty. Why? Because I've seen your tirades where you dish out personal attacks, and I want to signify that I'm attempting to help this user.

Then you go on to attack me, attack the OG, and even go so far as to make stuff up to bolster your argument.

If you want to actually engage in a discussion with the users here and see what feedback they can give you to help you, don't insult them. If you just want your voice heard by the OG, you can use the Help > Send Feedback... option from within OW.

Forest man, i've been to this forum for a few days now and there are many posts by ppl explaining why they HATE the drawer Tabs and that is without using the search engine. Before this forum, many ppl have also stated their objection to the drawer Tab with reasoning for a LONG time on the macnn forums. Versiontracker comments have also provided complaints, man its EVERYWHERE. I think you are trying to make petty allowances for the blatantly and obvious designs which many ppl view as being flawed, how can you possibly even suggest you can offer help? That is completely absurd. Even more absurd is your claim of my so called 'personal attacks' directed at you. If you think strongly presented opinions are personal attacks then i seriously think you need to stop visiting the child care center, grow a spine and remove the cotton wool bubble you seem to be enclosed in because you be in a real shock if you actually were in a situation when face with a real world personal attack.

So can you or will you acknowledge the basis of 'anyone's' comments which may be negative on the topic of Drawer Tabs or is that 'stubborn' gene going to overrule anything that is said? finally did you design the Drawer Tab? Im just curious why you so adamantly defend the topic?

I would have preferred to enter this conversation and just say i wish there was an option for Horizontal Tabs without going into a multi post tirade with you explaining exactly why we don't like the design an have you responding telling us how wonderful it is for you, an why WE shouldn't want Horizontal Tabs, i never read any of your reasons why we shouldn't want/need horizontal tabs nor has anyone asked you for a detailed objection.

So in summary please don't get so upset if other don't agree with designs that work for you.... chin up ;-) And remember we only ask for the Top side Tab thing as an OPTION so you really have no need to start crying :D

[Drayon]

Originally Posted by Len Case

You know, I don't have a problem with horizontal tabs--but doing them would take time away from something else. Everyone has their own pet peeve: for example, Forrest would rather we add back sizes next to images in the page info (among other things). He has even gone so far as to revert back to 5.1.3 because for him 5.5 is too much of a step back.

But where is our time best spent. Right now I think getting betas of 5.5.1 with the improvements to WebKit is probably the best use of our time. After that, fixing the regressions caused by the update (auto-complete and zoomed editing so far) as well as working on the regressions of 5.5 compared to 5.1 (such as the missing image sizes). Then going back and hitting the worst of the issues from before 5.5.

This particular issue might fall into that third category.

You seem like a very reasonable man Len. I appreciate everyone has a peeve. For some of us who want the horizontal tabs we simply don't have the option to revert back to a previous OW version. Forest is at least fortunate, since he can revert to an older version for his issue. If you took a survey of web browser users and asked them if they would want horizontal tabs over other regressive features im sure the results would be overwhelmingly in the favor of the Tabs inclusion. From a users perspective major application usability features like horizontal tabs would be a far higher priority than small niggly bugs which could be resolved in small maintenance updates.

Im not exactly sure how many ppl are actively developing OW but to put things into perspective (by no means am i comparing development competence here) but there is 1 an only 1 developer of iCab an to his credit he managed to graft Tabs to his carbon application in about a week due to customer demand, the poor guy doesn't even use interface builder :-(

You say you don't have a problem with horizontal tabs, can this be taken to mean this feature is a planned reality sometime in the near future, or a nice way of saying it can be done but we won't?

Best