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Single tasks as project groups & context vs project group Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Case
It sounds like there's some misunderstanding about OmniFocus' design, so let me see if I can clear that up. (Whether or not it's a good design is another question, but let's start by getting on the same page about what the design actually is.)

OmniFocus doesn't have subprojects.

What OmniFocus does have is a list of projects, which you can organize into a hierarchy using folders. Each project has some unique project attributes, like its status and its next review date.
I actually completely agree with this general design philosophy. But what I really don't like is that there are some attributes that are NOT unique to projects but are handled differently for action group.

Chief among these is the parallel/series setting. It drives me crazy that on one hand projects: 1) default to series, 2) show a black icon for series, 3) show a gray mouse-over icon for parallel, and 4) can be change by clicking. But on the other hand action groups 1) default to parallel, 2) never show an icon, and 3) can only be seen/changed via context-menu. I would very much like a more unified UI on this.

Also, projects and actions groups can both have a default context, but they are only visible/editable for action groups.

Finally, I would also like better handling for action groups with no remaining actions. I frequently loose sight of a project because an un-checked action group is preventing other actions from becoming available. I usually catch it during my weekly review, but a week is a long time to forget about a project.

I submitted these thoughts as feedback some time ago. It would be nice hear what the omnians have planned for this.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarkley
3) show a gray mouse-over icon for parallel
The ninjas tell me this is confirmed as a bug and will be fixed in a future build.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarkley
Finally, I would also like better handling for action groups with no remaining actions. I frequently loose sight of a project because an un-checked action group is preventing other actions from becoming available. I usually catch it during my weekly review, but a week is a long time to forget about a project.
Yes. I agree. I think i've posted about this a while ago, but the way things are currently, you can't safely use action groups inside sequential projects.
 
With all due respect, this is silly.

I understand that OF doesn't require us to plan everything out in advance and that you want to differentiate OmniFu from OmniPlan, but those are poor reasons to exclude some proper subproject functionality from OF.

Just because we don't have to plan out our every move doesn't mean we won't sit down and completely flesh out a project to see exactly what it will require of us.

I don't care whether you call them action groups or subprojects, they lack some important project-like functionality.

1. You cannot drop an action into a subproject/action group, only into the top level project. I understand this magnifies autocomplete issues, but couldn't we select the top level project and then arrow over to the subprojects?
2. You cannot see the next actions for all subproject/action groups in a parallel project, only the next action from the first subproject in the list. This is counter-intuitive, they're all technically projects, and all have a next action, but there's no way to see all of these next actions... if you use available, you risk the filter showing a huge list of parallel actions instead of the next ones you can do to move each subproject/action group forward.
3. You can't put a subproject on hold. See Thomas's issue. This is probably more in the domain of OmniPlan, but the issue is still there. This could probably be fixed, by creating dependencies between projects: i.e. setting the start date on Project B to the completion date of Project A, even though Project A isn't complete yet.
4. Subprojects/actiongroups are not checked as complete when their tasks are completed AND they don't show up in context for you to check them complete. And if you do start autocompleting them, how are you going to differentiate between the subproject/action group that has been completely fleshed out and is complete versus the subproject/action group that only had 2 or 3 tasks dropped in it, but isn't complete yet?

(I'm sorry that this ends abruptly and if it sounds more combative that I really mean it to sound, but I don't have time for rewritting, I have to head to work.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Case
OmniFocus doesn't have subprojects.
...
The focus of OmniFocus is on acting, not planning. The expectation is that you should simply write down the things that are on your mind so you can stop worrying about them now, and start acting on them when the opportunity is available. (Of course, if every step is already on your mind you might write them all down to get them out of your head.) As long as you're acting and keeping your projects moving forward, you've done enough planning from OmniFocus' point of view. (We don't force you to plan out your entire project in advance with every possible step of every portion of the project.)
 
I think this has been a tough issue to discuss in this forum because everyone's interpretation of the interface is predicated on their actual use of the app. In one sense, the problem arises because the app allows the user to start making an outline in the task pane with indentations and subcategories but then doesn't behave like an outline. When I look at my OF task list, the sub-project/task groupings have words like "get" and "arrange" instead of action words like "buy" and "call") which make them sound like projects but they are really just undifferentiated task lists, some actually already have subtasks, but many don't yet have all the tasks needed to mark that sub-project/task grouping as fully planned. I am reluctant to make all these grouping separate projects in the left Projects pane because even with Folders there isn't enough room for organization and display but I would like to treat the groupings as sub-projects with more Project functionality. So, yes, I agree with GeekLady (no surprise there) and and would like to see sub-project functinality and not just task-groups because it would better reflect to the way I enter tasks into OF and get them out of my head.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarkley
Finally, I would also like better handling for action groups with no remaining actions. I frequently loose sight of a project because an un-checked action group is preventing other actions from becoming available. I usually catch it during my weekly review, but a week is a long time to forget about a project.

I run my Verify Next Actions Exist script as part of my evening and morning reviews for exactly this reason.* I think it would work to have the action group header show up as an action in the context view when all of its children were completed. Then I could either check it off, or else use Show in Project View to add another next action. The one significant drawback is that if the action group isn't legitimately actionable, then my context view is polluted with non-actionable items.

* Sorry to keep plugging my scripts. I'm starting to feel like I should get a plaid jacket. "Welcome to Crazy Eddies! What do I need to do to get you to download a new script today!"
__________________
Cheers,

Curt
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeekLady
I don't care whether you call them action groups or subprojects, they lack some important project-like functionality.
I understand—but it's not just a matter of not calling them subprojects; it's that we haven't implemented subprojects (and aren't trying to), which is why you can't do all the things you're talking about doing (such as assigning inbox items to subprojects or indicating each subproject's next actions).

Rather than trying to treat action groups as individual subprojects, my suggestion is to make each of your subprojects a separate project (possibly grouped in a folder if several are related); I think you'll find that eliminates most of the problems you're currently encountering while trying to treat action groups as subprojects. (Instead, I'm guessing you'll have some feedback for us about folders and dependencies between projects.)

Quote:
3. You can't put a subproject on hold.
If you create a separate project for your subprojects this won't be an issue, but I thought I'd also point out that you can effectively put individual actions (and action groups) on hold by setting their start date to some date in the future.

Quote:
4. Subprojects/actiongroups are not checked as complete when their tasks are completed AND they don't show up in context for you to check them complete.
We're planning to fix this: we agree that they should action groups should either show up in context view when their children are complete (but in what context, since they don't truly have one of their own?) or they shouldn't block the project (either by automatically marking them complete, or perhaps by just skipping past them so you still have the opportunity to decide whether they're really complete the next time you review your project).
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Case
We're planning to fix this: we agree that they should action groups should either show up in context view when their children are complete (but in what context, since they don't truly have one of their own?) or they shouldn't block the project (either by automatically marking them complete, or perhaps by just skipping past them so you still have the opportunity to decide whether they're really complete the next time you review your project).
But action groups can have contexts; it's one of the ways in which they are more action-like than project-like.

As I've argued before, automatically marking action groups complete is a recipe for disaster. You've said that the philosophy of OmniFocus is that you don't assume that people are planning everything in advance. But autocompleting an action group when its children are complete makes just that assumption! In doing so, that design choice would keep me from trusting my system.

Skipping past an action group has a similar problem. Suppose I have an action group "Set Up MacBook Pro". It might have a bunch of actions in parallel. Following that action group might be a Sell PowerBook G4 action group. I don't want to move on to selling the PowerBook until I've manually confirmed that I have the MacBook Pro set up as desired.

Perhaps I'm constructing deeper hierarchies on projects than I should be. I suppose the Sell PowerBook G4 action group could be a separate On-Hold project that I activate when I finish the MacBook Pro set up project. But because I only review on-hold projects about once a month, setting up the projects like this would mean a month or more delay between setting up the MacBook Pro and selling the PowerBook.

The current behavior is preferable to both the autocompletion and skipping proposals. At least currently I can hack up the safe behavior with a script.
__________________
Cheers,

Curt
 
Curt,

couldn't you just make the last action of the task group something like: "verify that MacBook Pro is adequately set up"?

I really feel constrained by the current behaviour. It degrades the trustability of my system in a different way: tasks waiting for a task group to be completed are hidden until my weekly review. Skipping would be ok; autocompletion (perhaps with a preference to turn it off) would be the most intuitive.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markbrown00
couldn't you just make the last action of the task group something like: "verify that MacBook Pro is adequately set up"?

I really feel constrained by the current behaviour. It degrades the trustability of my system in a different way: tasks waiting for a task group to be completed are hidden until my weekly review. Skipping would be ok; autocompletion (perhaps with a preference to turn it off) would be the most intuitive.
I'm in complete agreement with this.

It seems like some alpha testers can't get comfortable with the neither-fish-nor-fowl nature of these "action groups" (and thus clamor for them to behave like subprojects, indistinguishable from projects except for their position in the hierarchy).

But I actually really appreciate this new invention. It seems to me - dare I say it - like an improvement on David Allen's system. As I understand him, Allen talks about projects as multi-step objectives that require planning and "staking." He describes some good methods for visualizing the end result, brainstorming, etc. to flesh out that planning. But he also states that any objective that requires more than one step is perforce a project. This is what I've struggled with in implementing GTD in the past: is

- look up movie showtimes @web
- call Mario re: movie tomorrow? @calls

really a project? I think it makes sense to call it something else, because it doesn't require any nontrivial visualizing of a successful outcome, brainstorming around how to get there, etc. It's just a group of actions - an action group!

By definition and in my practice, these action groups are complete when their component actions are complete. Assumption of the necessity of a review of their doneness seems like overkill to me. I'm glad to hear from Omni that the plan is to stick with action groups and to fix the problem of them holding up projects.
 
 


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