I've been testing OF and like most of what I see, but I really don't understand why users are forced to manually sync and cleanup. I guess some users might appreciate this feature, but it seems completely different from the way most other apps I've tested work. I could see myself easily forgetting to sync or cleanup and then finding myself wondering why all the tasks I created aren't on my Palm after syncing with my Mac.

Can someone please explain the rational behind this, and why users aren't provided with more options for automated syncing and cleanup?

Thanks,

Andrew

[Brian]

Automatic features will do things when the user isn't paying attention, which means the user won't notice when the software does something the user didn't expect or want.

We have these features set up as actions the user specifically triggers as a way of trying to ensure that errors get caught while they're still on the Undo stack. It's harder to recover from a bad synch or cleanup an hour after it happens, when you've done fifty other things.

Edit: aaaaaaaahhhh fooey. I hit the "Edit" button on your post instead of the "Reply" button, and didn't notice until my reply obliterated your post. I'm really sorry. If you still have the text of your post, can you put it back up? I suck.

[pjb]

With regards to manual cleanup, in the alpha days there were trials of different degrees of automatic cleanup. Some found it disquieting to have items disappear immediately on checking. Others found that they prefer to work out of the Inbox and not sort things into project right away. Still others wanted to be able to review, edit, and sort in the Inbox manually . There may have been other concers, this list is just from memory.

Manual sync is another problem altogether. I would like to see instant automatic update to sync services databases and I believe that this is on the docket for development (but would be a Leopard-only feature).

If you want to set up automated syncing the there is a thread that may be helpful.

[abh19]

Originally Posted by arossphoto

Can someone please explain the rational behind this, and why users aren't provided with more options for automated syncing and cleanup?

Thanks,

Andrew

I don't generally use syncing myself, but I want to point out that syncing is OmniFocus communicating with software that's completely out of the control of Omni's programmers. Errorless automatic syncing with, for example, iCal, would require Apple's programmers to work closely with Omni's programmers, each group modifying their own code so it would all cooperate back and forth. This would be great for us, and I'm sure Omni would go for it too, but if Apple gave time to every software group who wanted to sync with iCal and AddressBook, and Mail, they'd have all their resources working on iCal syncing for the next 10 years. So, they've decided to give 3rd party programmers basic (ie. non-interactive, manual) ability to sync with iCal, and leave the details up to the 3rd party programmers to find the best working solution. Could Apple have done more? Sure, but they didn't. This is one reason why manual syncing is best. There are others too.

The reasons for manual "Cleaning Up" are well summarized by the OmniFocus help files:

"The grouping, sorting, and filtering settings in the view bar control what parts of your database are visible and how they're arranged. For instance, most of the time you don't care to see actions you've already completed, so you use the action filter to show only remaining actions. Sure, that's handy, but you also don't want OmniFocus pulling stuff out from under you as you're working on it. For instance, if you mark an action complete, you probably don't want it to disappear that very moment; you may still change your mind and want to uncheck it, or copy its notes into an e-mail, or just double-check that you clicked the right thing. Likewise, you probably don't want an inbox item to be spirited away the instant you assign a context to it.
So, OmniFocus has a command called Clean Up. It happens automatically every now and then, so that things stay tidy, but you can also clean up manually by clicking the Clean Up toolbar button, or choosing Clean Up from the Edit menu.
Cleaning up puts everything where it belongs: items that don't match the filter settings disappear, visible items move into the appropriate groups, inbox items move to their assigned projects, and so on. After you change some items, you can Clean Up to make sure that your view is up to date.

So, everything will get cleaned up automatically, eventually, even if you don't click "Clean Up". But there are times when you want to make sure that you've got a clean slate, everything's in its right place and updated, and that's the purpose of "Clean Up".

Hope that helps!

Hope that helps.

[Toadling]

Originally Posted by abh19

So, everything will get cleaned up automatically, eventually, even if you don't click "Clean Up". But there are times when you want to make sure that you've got a clean slate, everything's in its right place and updated, and that's the purpose of "Clean Up".

Good post from abh19. I agree completely and the manual provides very compelling rationale for the current behavior.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by brickbat

Huh? Are you saying you can't sync automatically because your software is unreliable?

No, what I'm saying is that even properly written software can do things that don't match expectations. It can do it because the user doesn't understand what the software does (their expectations don't match the software), or because the user entered the wrong information. Garbage in, garbage out. Example: what I just accidentally did to your post.

We agree that your information is important. That's why we don't do important and and hard-to-undo stuff to it without your explicit permission.

[Toadling]

Originally Posted by Brian

...we don't do important and and hard-to-undo stuff to it without your explicit permission.

Bravo! I couldn't agree more.

[santra]

Originally Posted by arossphoto

I've been testing OF and like most of what I see, but I really don't understand why users are forced to manually... cleanup.

I agree with arossphoto. I've always been in this camp, still want that this feature, and despite all the arguments above, continue to be amazed that a switch for this hasn't been added to Preferences. What's even more disappointing is that it seems to be vanishing from these type of apps. iGTD2 beta doesn't seem to have it, and Things doesn't have it in the Projects area. Older apps like Bonsai, Life Balance, and Palm To Dos always made it a priority.

I don't understand why such a simple UI feature is withheld, since this could be coded as a preference so that EVERYONE would be happy. Right now, the 10% or 15% of us who still want this feature are continually frustrated.

iCal, with one of the simplest To Do app implementations on the planet, has this feature. (Preferences, Advanced, Hide To Do items 0 days after they have been completed--a very elegant implementation of cleanup, IMHO.) So how can iCal have this but not OmniFocus?

Climbing down off my high horse now. Thank you for your time.