[IceWind]

Originally Posted by endoftheQ

IceWind, thanks for posting about Outliner by CarbonFin, I downloaded copies both to my iPhone and iPad and...

... Outliner's drag-and-drop is exactly what I had hoped for and expected to get with OmniFocus for iPad, instead of which I get 'move' which relies on an 'experimental' feature (landscape mode) which another respected Member of this Board informs me remains experimental because it's full of bugs! Outliner has the ability to share, OPML, access via a web browser and a clean, legible, consistent GUI.

Oh, and it costs less than a tenth of OmniFocus for iPad.

In my eyes, it demonstrates how outdated, shoddy, inconsistent and overpriced the OmniFocus family of products have sadly become.

You're more than welcome. I really like CarbonFin Outliner.. Its so easy and intuitive to use. Very fast too. I use it daily for creating project outlines.. or simply breaking down anything into smaller steps. I even find it fast enough for taking notes in a meeting!

I was really hoping that OG would have released OF for iPad with a similar type of UI :(

I've sent feedback via the gear icon in OF and pointed out that they should check out carbonFin outliner for inspiration (doubt that they will though).

[IceWind]

Originally Posted by Eye_Doc

I agree, if perhaps not so vociferously.

They really need to get this done a little more elegantly, especially considering we are expecting OmniOutliner on the iPad.

Perhaps a customised keyboard with indent/exdent buttons.

Personally on the desktop, I just use the keyboard for this.

I've just had a horrible thought... What if OG are planning to implement their new OF GUI "baby" as the core functionality of OmniOutliner for iPad?? :eek:

[whpalmer4]

Originally Posted by endoftheQ

... Outliner's drag-and-drop is exactly what I had hoped for and expected to get with OmniFocus for iPad, instead of which I get 'move' which relies on an 'experimental' feature (landscape mode) which another respected Member of this Board informs me remains experimental because it's full of bugs!

We have had a failure to communicate. I said the iPhone landscape mode was experimental, and that is how it is labeled in the very latest build. I said nothing of the sort about the landscape support in the iPad app, which is not so labeled, and indeed, I have not seen in the iPad app any instances of the sorts of bugs to which I was referring. I would expect some if the "just build a universal app with what you had" approach had been taken.

[endoftheQ]

Originally Posted by whpalmer4

We have had a failure to communicate. I said the iPhone landscape mode was experimental, and that is how it is labeled in the very latest build. I said nothing of the sort about the landscape support in the iPad app, which is not so labeled, and indeed, I have not seen in the iPad app any instances of the sorts of bugs to which I was referring. I would expect some if the "just build a universal app with what you had" approach had been taken.

whpalmer4, I'm sorry if I misrepresented what you said, please accept my apologies, it wasn't intentional. :(

However, it proves a point. Omni wanders off to develop OF for iPad before fixing the bug-ridden experimental landscape mode in OF for iPhone, even though landscape mode is an essential requirement in using the move feature.

Shoddy? Yes! ... or at least I think so...

[endoftheQ]

Originally Posted by IceWind

I've just had a horrible thought... What if OG are planning to implement their new OF GUI "baby" as the core functionality of OmniOutliner for iPad?? :eek:

OK, IceWind, you've guaranteed I won't be buying on release. I'll wait for the indepth reviews on this Board! However, unless Omni manages to create an offering that slays CarbonFin's Outliner, on usability, connectivity, price, etc. I won't be buying at all!

[ksrhee]

I'm not here trying to defend OG, but bring in another perspective. OF for iPad or any other task management program is completely dependent upon UI functions provided by the iOS system. The fact that all the other programs use a similar UI for data entry and other function is a sure indicator of this.

CarbonFin Outliner is a fine program, and it does outlining very well, but it doesn't have to deal with other features that go into task management.

I for one found the current incarnation of OF amazing given the limitations imposed by iOS. I know of no other task management program that allow you to have nest projects/tasks, and also provide the "outline" view at the same time.

If you know of any other program that does this, then please let me know since I would be interested in looking at it.

Thanks.

[whpalmer4]

Originally Posted by endoftheQ

whpalmer4, I'm sorry if I misrepresented what you said, please accept my apologies, it wasn't intentional. :(

However, it proves a point. Omni wanders off to develop OF for iPad before fixing the bug-ridden experimental landscape mode in OF for iPhone, even though landscape mode is an essential requirement in using the move feature.

Shoddy? Yes! ... or at least I think so...

You're entitled to hold your opinion, of course. Airing it publicly might result in looking foolish in some eyes, however.

The bugs I mentioned are of a level that would not have been advanced by anyone on the beta team as reason not to ship when Ken did his final "all systems go" check before launch of the iPad app. They consist of things like:

spacing issues of the numbers on the date/time picker dials
layout of start/due button text (overlaps (x) button) in start/due display area in date/time picker
corners and edges date/time picker dials are not rendered the same as in landscape mode

Go fire up your iPhone and have a look at that screen in portrait mode, then rotate and look at it in landscape mode. The landscape mode graphic design work there clearly has not gotten the same level of attention. Does it make any functional difference? No. Strictly cosmetic.

The other sort of landscape mode bugs are issues of keeping all of the UI elements in synchronization about whether the display is in portrait or landscape mode, and they are triggered by changing the display orientation while the program is busy, usually in ways that do not reflect normal usage (twisting it back and forth while the app is launching, for example). Again, at most minor functional impact, and easily avoided.

None of these bugs have any relevance to the use of the Move button (iPad) or Reorganize button (iPhone/iPod). Unlike the iPhone app, the iPad app was built from the beginning with the expectation that it would be used in landscape mode as well as portrait mode.

[Ken Case]

Originally Posted by blewis

Absolutely not the drag and drop desktop experience I was hoping for.

It's absolutely not what we're hoping for or planning for either! 1.0 is just the first step along a long path: we expect to be working on many more releases of OmniFocus for iPad over time.

A few weeks ago there was no drag-and-drop reordering at all, and we weren't sure whether we'd try to include any such reordering for 1.0. Here's what I told a beta-tester at the time:

I'll note that it's possible to reorder your tasks using Cut and Paste, and you can reorder your projects and contexts by showing them in the sidebar and selecting "Edit Sidebar", but I agree that the main content area really needs a simple drag-and-drop reordering interface like our iPhone app has. Unfortunately, that's actually a substantial bit of work. I'm trying to decide whether it's a show-stopper for 1.0, or if we can get away with adding it for 1.1.

In fact, struggling with this particular interaction is what led me to post this update to our blog on July 12:

I have to keep reminding myself that Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien, "the perfect is the enemy of the good," and that "not shipping" might be a worse flaw than a missing feature that we'd really like to implement.

Obviously, in the end we decided it was worth delaying 1.0 just long enough to get the current basic level of drag-and-drop task reordering working, but not worth delaying to implement full-on drag-and-drop reordering including dragging containers around. (I should point out, though, that you can drag actions between projects and into and out of groups. There just isn't an easy drag-and-drop way to make a task a child of another task.)

But just because we decided not to delay 1.0 any longer doesn't mean we think it's perfect the way it is. We're very proud of 1.0 for what it is—that first step along a long path—but we wouldn't be happy to stay here forever!

[endoftheQ]

Ouch!

Originally Posted by whpalmer4

You're entitled to hold your opinion, of course. Airing it publicly might result in looking foolish in some eyes, however.

I've reached the age where appearing foolish is the least of my problems!

Originally Posted by whpalmer4

The bugs I mentioned are of a level that would not have been advanced by anyone on the beta team as reason not to ship when Ken did his final "all systems go" check before launch of the iPad app. They consist of things like:

spacing issues of the numbers on the date/time picker dials
layout of start/due button text (overlaps (x) button) in start/due display area in date/time picker
corners and edges date/time picker dials are not rendered the same as in landscape mode

whpalmer4, you didn't say "it's full of minor cosmetic bugs", you actually said "it's full of bugs" and I took that at face value.

Originally Posted by whpalmer4

Go fire up your iPhone and have a look at that screen in portrait mode, then rotate and look at it in landscape mode. The landscape mode graphic design work there clearly has not gotten the same level of attention. Does it make any functional difference? No. Strictly cosmetic.

So, we have markedly different expectations. In my view OmniFocus is a premium-priced product. If I buy a $1000 suit and the stitching is worse than on a $200 suit should I take it on the chin and think, hey, it's only cosmetic? I don't think so.

Originally Posted by whpalmer4

The other sort of landscape mode bugs are issues of keeping all of the UI elements in synchronization about whether the display is in portrait or landscape mode, and they are triggered by changing the display orientation while the program is busy, usually in ways that do not reflect normal usage (twisting it back and forth while the app is launching, for example). Again, at most minor functional impact, and easily avoided.

Oh let me guess. I undoubtedly have to vote to get these bugs fixed... and wait... and wait... and wait. After all, it's not like OmniFocus is the most expensive GTD app in the store, is it? OK, if I'd paid peanuts I'd expect to get a monkey!

Originally Posted by whpalmer4

None of these bugs have any relevance to the use of the Move button (iPad) or Reorganize button (iPhone/iPod). Unlike the iPhone app, the iPad app was built from the beginning with the expectation that it would be used in landscape mode as well as portrait mode.

Isn't the whole thing a bug where you have to turn an iPhone landscape before you can see where you can move an action to?

[whpalmer4]

Originally Posted by endoftheQ

whpalmer4, you didn't say "it's full of minor cosmetic bugs", you actually said "it's full of bugs" and I took that at face value.

Cosmetic bugs are still bugs, no?

So, we have markedly different expectations. In my view OmniFocus is a premium-priced product. If I buy a $1000 suit and the stitching is worse than on a $200 suit should I take it on the chin and think, hey, it's only cosmetic? I don't think so.

I'd refer you to Ken's comment about any given revision not representing the ultimate vision. It isn't a static product, unlike a suit. And for the record, the garments hanging at the end of my closet demonstrate that I prefer a well-tailored suit made from top-drawer fabrics and some occasionally irregular hand stitching to cheaper ones with bargain fabrics, styling, and impeccable machine stitching. And every one from Omni who has met me at Macworld reading this is thinking "WTF? he owns a suit? a bunch of expensive ones?" :)

Yes, I would prefer that the tailor fix the zipper in the fly before worrying about a bit of the lining that didn't get tacked down just right.

Isn't the whole thing a bug where you have to turn an iPhone landscape before you can see where you can move an action to?

Isn't that a bug that manifests itself in portrait mode?